S02E02 Liba Waring Stambollion | Dreams & Divinities
This month, my dear friend Liba joins me for a conversation about art, sincerity and devotion. We talk about trippy and transformative dreams, why artists need to root for each other, what’s really behind our impulse to make art, and where AI, love and pain all fit in. Join us?
Liba is a Franco-American artist raised in Southeast Asia. Her multidisciplinary practice spans painting, writing, design, and curatorial work, exploring the Sacred Feminine, ecology, and mysticism.
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SHOW NOTES
Dreams & Divinities, a global collaborative art and literary project Liba founded in 2012
My very own (and your) Art Hangouts
Mentioned in the show: The Sefer Yetzirah
CHAPTERS
00:00:00 Intro
00:03:13 Hard start, who’s Liba
00:05:14 Art, Sincerity & Shadow
00:07:11 Being a community weaver
00:08:41 The trap of competition and isolation for artists
00:09:48 How I met Liba
00:13:04 Art, devotion, art archetypes…
00:21:44 AI and art, AI and pain, AI and love, love and pain…
00:30:55 Trippy magic guidance dreams
01:05:09 Liba’s art origin story and the impulse behind her art
01:08:57 The impulse to make art, doubt and environment
01:15:58 Duality, pain, faith and trust
01:20:23 What’s cooking for Liba & Yasmine
TRANSCRIPT
[No speaker 1, speakers 2 etc. All jumbled up… deal with it :)]
I'm feeling that beat. I'm feeling it. Yeah. Yes. Let's do this. I'm just gonna sing this. I don't even care.
[music]
thing we call spirituality. Ouch. That's a very long word. It's a very, very long word. I know. If you like it, Get on the newsletter so I can message you shit. Oh, that's going up. I should just, I'm supposed to switch to head. Yeah, it's your passaggio. Okay, that's how it's going. Let's go on, let's go on.
So if you like it, get on, get on. Where are we in the melody? I don't even know anymore. I'm all over the place. So if you like it, get on the newsletter so I can message you shit and really like once in a while, really not often, I promise. Sing this.
And then all the old classics apply. No, classics apply. Every time it sounds like I'm saying classics applies, it sucks. The classics apply. Like and subscribe. And that's it. Let's get on with the show. Baby! You're supposed to say baby in songs, so I just wanted to say that. Plus I like you.
Okay, so I'm going to keep that one really short, like in terms of intro, because this is a, you know, on the longer side in terms of conversations, but I just wanted to say that I'm delighted to bring to you this conversation with my friend Liba, who's a wonderful painter,
writer, Curator, designer, she had many lives and wears many hats. And so, yeah, I hope you enjoy. I'll just put all the info in the show notes, like in terms of who she is, what she does, what she's up to. But I think the conversation itself is pretty,
you know, self-explanatory and I don't have to do a whole lot of intro. I hope you like it. And as always, if there's anything that you know you would like to discuss about all those things, just don't hesitate and get in touch. I still organize the bi-weekly art hangouts
where we basically make art together online twice a week for a few hours. You don't have to stay the four hours. It's free. It's cool. It's chill and it's just a way to have community as artists and to just make sure that we show up for what we love, art in this case. So check it out.
It's in the show notes, the link to register. And that's about it.
I hope you enjoy the conversation. Liba is a good friend and
a very dear friend, a wonderful painter, and so many things that you do. You know, a writer. I mean, you have several books. You have tarot cards. Basically, you've been publishing all kinds of stuff. You're a curator. And the one thing that I would like to talk about in the beginning
a little bit is how much you are a connector. And I always admired and so valued that and cherished that in you is how much you are a connector of artists. You love artists. And yeah, just, I would like to hear more about, I mean,
you have a crazy biography and just tell me some about you and then we can move on to maybe talking a little bit about, you know, how you make community with artists. I would love to, to just have a little question about that, but please.
Yeah, so that's, it's absolutely true. And I remember one time after a ceremony, I pulled a card that sort of described my work on this planet. And the card I got was the weaver. And I think certain people are weavers. Each person has, you know, a gift, many gifts. And...
I think that the reason that I can weave people together is because I'm genuinely inspired and excited. I get super excited when I see artwork and poetry and writing, any kind of artistic expression that is genuine and I think sincerity is one of the sexiest things out there.
I can see people that are very good technicians that do things perfectly, but they do nothing for my soul. They don't excite me because they're kind of just... Doing what they think they need to do, maybe to get famous, maybe because it's an exercise, who knows what their reasoning is, but it lacks soul.
But as soon as there's a real vision, a real desire to put something out there that is strong and powerful, it will come through the art, and it gets me all excited. And that's how I found you, Yasmine. I mean, just scrolling, and I was like, whoa, with all your...
Very, very powerful images of people who had addictions. And, you know, I've been down that road. I've been, you know, I think that we all have to go and face our shadow before we can come up with something, come out of the shadow world with something that is beneficial for the world.
I mean, that's the whole hero's journey. And, uh, and so I could, when I saw your addict, uh, You know, series, it was so friggin' powerful. I mean, you just put your finger right on it. And I was like, whoa, I gotta know this girl. And so...
Thank you. And, you know, about the shadow, I was thinking, you know, I think for our whole life, we're going to have to confront more shadow aspects. And so, in a way, you know, might as well make it beautiful and just like, you know, make yourself cozy in that and make it really beautiful and powerful because,
I mean, it's not going to stop anytime soon, you know. I love that response.
You know. I a thousand percent agree with you. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, because it's all in how we deal with it and how we respond to it. And yeah, and so my whole sort of relationship with the community has been extremely organic. None of it was planned. I never planned to be a curator.
I never planned to put on shows. It just... Little by little circumstances had it that, you know, I would, you know, I love making books. I made a book and that book was launched in, my first book was launched in Granada with, and the Minister of Culture, the Minister of Women's Affairs, all these ministers and municipal people.
We're there at the book launch and they're like, oh my God, this artwork's so beautiful. Do you want to show it here in our town hall? Do you want to show it? You know, and it started organically like that. You know, just people asking, hey, do you know these artists? Why don't you put on a show?
And I've done now like organized about 30 shows. So. Yeah, I know. I've kind of put the brakes on now. I'm trying really hard to sort of concentrate on getting my own work finished, but it's been a wonderful, incredible ride. And yeah, I'm still doing a little bit. It's not 100%.
I've got another big project for next year for the community, but it's definitely... I'm not as like rollercoaster with it anymore. You know, it's not like I'm doing like three shows a year, you know?
Yeah. Yeah. But it's something for me, it's so striking because I think a lot of artists live in that competition and very, very solo. You know, I was very solo. I was not so much competition, but very much solo. Yeah. That idea that, I don't know, I mean,
there was a kind of like a sense of isolation in my work for a very long time where I was just behind the easel by myself, like, you know, looking like a witch, not getting out of the house, just like working, working, working and not like, you know, inviting in.
You know, other people and just me coming out and like exploring. I mean, there were all kinds of reasons for that addiction being possibly the main one and all the lifestyle that it brings, you know. But what I'm saying is like with you, I have felt really that sense of like... Something so natural.
So it feels so effortless for you to just like notice people who have cool work and want to meet them, want to bring them together, want this person to meet that person. And I don't know, it's something I so cherish and just so adore it. I mean, we met in, I think, 2021 now or 2020 or 2021.
Yeah, I think even before because it was before COVID. Yeah.
Of course it was before COVID.
Yeah, and COVID was like 2019 it starts, so we must have met like 2017 or 2018.
Indeed, we met before COVID. I came to see you in Paris before that. That's true, of course.
Yeah. Because time has got this insane, like, I don't even understand time anymore. It's become the weirdest thing. I agree.
So time is a trip. But I remember... The way that, you know, we got in touch and I realized you were in Paris and I was like, what the fuck? I mean, she's next door basically. And so I came to visit you and I will always remember coming into your place at first. It was a dinner party.
And I came in and first I saw your beautiful apartment. Liba has a home, people. It's just... It's a museum, but it's a museum where you can hang out and you can touch the art and you can just like, it's all that you would like a museum to be, you know, basically. And I got in first,
I was struck by like the visual quality of what I was seeing, but also it was that atmosphere where, you know, I could just like, Kick back and let my hair down. There was a sense of being accepted no matter what and a sense of being so relaxed.
When you don't know someone and it's the first time you meet them, that's extremely rare to have that kind of situation going on. I got in and I think one of the first things I did is I took off my shoes. Okay, I'm good here. And that's it.
By the way, for people listening from other places, we're in Europe. People don't take off their shoes when they arrive at a dinner party. They just don't do that, okay? So taking off your shoes is really a sign that you're very, very comfortable.
So yeah, that was so striking in the first time I met you and how we started talking. I think we talked for... It was so long.
Oh my God, we got a tick to two. I remember one time you came over here to the country house and was it like two or three nights in a row we stayed up till dawn just talking all night long.
Absolutely.
Yeah, no, that's so beautiful. And it's, yeah, I mean, yours, So incredibly talented, I mean, and not only talented, like I said earlier, it's not a question of being technically talented, even though when you're technically talented, as well as being sincere, it's that magic mix.
It's that alchemy that makes something to me, what I call the wow factor, where I'm just like... Wow, I want to know that person. I want to know that person, you know, and I get that sort of...
Yeah, I so agree with you. I mean, the sincerity, I think in a way, you know, the technical side to me, and that's a question that I wanted to ask you. We haven't looked at your background whatsoever. Look at us, we're doing a great job. But I'm doing a great job as a host.
I mean, you see, that's the way we talk always.
It's organic. It's perfect. I think it's perfect.
But I was just thinking, to me, the whole technical side has a lot to do with devotion to a craft. It has a lot to do with, you know, I want this to be beautiful. I want this to be pleasing to take in because the sincere message is beautiful.
But if it's all shaped in a way that, I mean, to me, the essence of art is still that there needs to be some Venus side to it. So attraction, something pleasing.
Yeah, absolutely.
Otherwise, it's just a message. It's not art.
Exactly. 100% agree. Yeah. That's so perfectly said. Yeah.
And a question that I ask to pretty much everybody, and so it's not tailored to you in particular, however, I would like to ask you that question is, what would be the role for you of that word, devotion, in your practice? I would call you a scholar as well as an artist,
and you've been really studying so much, so much. So in the study and the technical side of being an artist, what would be the role of devotion for you? How does that live in your life?
Well, that's interesting that you brought up the scholarly part too, because probably devotion is the thread that goes through all the stuff I'm interested in studying, all the stuff I'm interested in painting. You know, that is the actual thread. And I... From the age of, as far as I can remember, I grew up in an atheist household.
My parents were, I don't know if atheist is the word, probably agnostic is better. My mom was really interested in Buddhism and she was interested in different ideas and philosophies, but definitely not religious. But definitely did not believe in sort of a greater spirit and I was convinced
since I was little that there was no way we were all by ourselves in this huge universe without any sort of greater spirit. I didn't know what it was. I didn't know. And when I became a teenager at a young age, I had a mystic experience when I was 15 that just blew my mind and I...
I tapped into that sort of universal consciousness that made me realize I was everything from the Coke can to the skyscraper, to you, to me, to the animals, the birds, the bees, the breeze. And so this feeling of complete omnipresent consciousness that I know we are A part of,
but we're in this experience that takes us into a mystery and cuts us from that knowledge so that we can discover. I mean, I think that if any of us was sort of understanding and in that omniscient consciousness at all times, there would be no reason to have a podcast because...
I would know every potential of what you would ask me or think of, and you would know every potential of what I was thinking as well. But by going in through the mystery, I'm able to discover. And, you know, I think that there's a perfect,
I think we're kind of in school here, so that we're learning who am I. And this sort of, I felt like I've been at the keyhole of this omniscience all my life. And through work with everything from plant medicine to meditation to breath work to, you know, it is probably the most exciting thing. And dream work.
I'm a big, big dreamer. And I've been a lucid dreamer since childhood. And my dreams are probably one of the biggest teachers that I've ever had. Along with plant medicine. And I just feel like it's the most exciting, most beautiful, most fulfilling thing ever. And if I can express it through writing and painting,
it's even more exciting because I'm kind of filtering it through me. I feel like each one of us is like, I wrote this in a story that I wrote when I was a teenager, that each one of us is like a silk screen picture. And we're taking the universal and we're pressing it through the silkscreen
of Yasmine, of Liba. But it's the same universal energy, just as being expressed in all this multitude of ways. So yeah, so devotion is the common link because it's so important to me and it's what I want to express. I want to express sort of the great, amazing, mysterious... Unnameable, ineffable. You know, I can't even express it,
but when I get close and we can put it through writing and poetry and painting, it's a thrill.
Yeah. I'm so into what you said and that thing, that idea of being the filter, like the way I see it, I see a stained glass window. And everybody's a different one.
Yeah. And the light is the universal being, right? That's coming through it.
Exactly. And that explains, I mean, it's an old idea. And I think, I mean, Jung of all people, like, you know, talked about that idea, but I think it's a very old idea. It's a beautiful idea. But the thing is, that's why I'm always surprised when people are surprised, like basically, what was it?
The last example that I saw? Yes. I went to watch a movie by John Carpenter.
Doesn't he do like scary films?
Yeah, from back in the day, he did The Thing, he did Escape from New York, he did all kinds of really, and they are very cool, aesthetically very pleasing. And he makes the music himself. And the music, which is a kind of early electronic music from the end of the 70s, beginning of the 80s. It's very minimalistic.
It's extremely good for music scores. But it's so, the touch of that music feels so much like the movies. Like, it's the same vibe. But why? Because, of course, it's the same guy. And people are surprised by that, being like, oh, I can't believe. Well, obviously, that is going to have that same touch,
that same kind of archetypal mix of vibe that we all have. Right. You know what I mean? Like, I'm starting to do his music now. Absolutely.
He's the silk screen, whether you're pressing his film or his music through it. It's still through film.
Exactly. I'm making jewelry now. I make music now. And they all look and sound the same way that my art does. Exactly. Because it's simply the same thing. It's not different. It's just a different medium. It's a la Yasmine. Yeah. And you, with your books, it's kind of the same too.
It's just like, it's the same vibe that we're getting. So... I never get that people ask us to just like pick a kind of niche because the niche is the vibe. The niche is the self-screen or the... Exactly, that's the
unique thing.
It's that vibe that is absolutely... Nobody else does that stuff. So it doesn't matter how precise a niche you're going to pick, somebody else is going to do it. However, you are the actual OG niche, you know? And that nobody can do it. So I think it really does not work for art and for artists. And honestly,
I think for humans to ask us to just like pick a niche thing, because that's again, that's, you know, like another guest on the podcast was talking about production line thinking, you know, it's a market, it's market logics.
Yeah.
And that goes back to why, you know, for example, AI is so dangerous for artists because I've noticed, I don't know if you've noticed this, but in the last couple of years, all of a sudden there's 10 million new amazing artists because you have such an influx of people generating images and tracing them,
you know, and they've been, sometimes they get found out, but... For me, the biggest problem with this by generating an image and just tracing it is you have to ask. Why are you bothering to do that in the first place? Because you no longer have the creative... What happens when I create an image,
and I'm sure it's with you too, is there's discovery. You're discovering as you're drawing, as you're painting, you're discovering you're unfolding. And when it's all been done for you and you're just tracing it, It just becomes a technical design, or like you said, a production. There's no more creative anything. You just have to be very precise.
So it's more technical than creative. And I think that it robs everybody of their natural... Capacity to be creative and to sort of imprint their natural silk screen or stained glass that we each are. We each have that unique quality, which makes me, Liba, and you, Yasmine. But once you're just copying, you're completely negating your own uniqueness.
It's so dangerous. And I think the only reason people are doing it is because There is such a need, and of course everybody's subject to it to a certain degree, but there's such a need to be seen and to be important. So people will just do it so they can go, you know,
look what I made, and everybody can go, wow, even though they just copied it.
Yeah, but they're not, I mean, anyone doing that is... Well, they're robbing themselves and I think so not getting the juice of what this is. Like there are several things. Like the first thing, like there are so many things about that AI art situation where one of
the first things that came up like for me is in my experience, Art is only interesting because there's a human on the other side. That's why we are drawn to art is because we want to know the inner lives and the inner selves of people. And so that's number one.
And so if that's not infused in the work, if there isn't the sense that another consciousness that is human like me has done this, then what the fuck is that relevant for? It's not. So that's one thing. But then also I was just thinking of, what was it? I lost my thing that I was thinking of. Yes.
One of the big reasons why we come up with all those technologies is because we want to avoid pain. And so we want comfort and to avoid pain, which I very much understand because I fucking hate pain like everybody else. However, however... I think at one point humanity is going to have to switch that view.
We are getting to a point now where we're starting slowly to realize that all those avoidance tactics with pain, what it brings is more craziness and more misery than there ever was and more of a sense of hopelessness and of things just not mattering. If you look at a relationship, you've been married for now like decades and
Yeah, 35 years.
Yes, it's been forever. You guys have had to work through so many things to make your relationship so strong. So many things. And now you're going to get an AI boyfriend that's just going to be chill and just do everything. That's not what humans are looking for. We're looking for challenge.
We're looking to get transformed by our experiences. And art making is so big on that. It's like I had to sacrifice so much to actually make art. I had to suffer so much. I had to just like sweat it basically so much. And that is so part of the process. It makes you someone else to create, right?
Yeah.
But I so agree with you that people, especially their own genius, people who do that are robbing themselves. They're robbing themselves. Yeah. It's tragic actually in a way. And I think a lot of us are robbing ourselves simply because we don't have a society that's actually encouraging our individuality and our particular genius.
It really isn't like it's not. That's why we're here. We're encouraging
each other. There is a group
out there. And there you have it. The community of artists is back. The whole question of being a community of artists and being each other's audience is a big deal.
And each other's cheerleaders as well.
Yes, totally. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But so I was also thinking how much AI to me is asking us to look at art differently and to step up our game, not technically, not in terms of like, but in terms of like, what's, I mean, of course, that's what everybody's asking. What makes us human?
What is it that the artificial intelligence cannot do? Of course, that's all. I mean, that's what we're going to ask. That's logical. And it turns out that a lot of it, of course, has to do with presence and embodiment and authenticity of emotions, that little thing in the body that nobody can just step over and
that we've been trying to step over for so long, just trying to be pure spirits, but that doesn't really work for us.
Yeah. Yeah, authenticity and... Sincerity for me are in the same boat. You know, it goes back to some of the most, that's what excites me the most. The sincerity, you know, just even in relationships, you can take it even beyond the art. You know, like if you, anybody with a sincere smile immediately becomes beautiful to me.
They can be wrinkled and they could be fat or too thin or whatever it is. As soon as they have a moment of grace and have this beautiful smile, they're gorgeous. Yes.
And also the power that it has. I know that at my worst in addiction, I was saved by just somebody smiling to me on that day. And that was one more day where I had the strength. Like seriously, it's so powerful to just smile at strangers. Just that.
I know.
A real smile, right? Yes.
A real smile. It's just medicine. It's beautiful. It's so, so important. And the same thing with art, when you get something that's truly sincere. I mean, I've looked at art that is kind of naive. Maybe the person can't quite get the body right, but There is so much sincerity and authenticity in the painting
that it's just gorgeous, you know. And then I've looked at stuff that is technically so perfect and everything is just perfect, but it's so soulless and it just feels boring, you know.
Yeah. Yeah. And then again, I think it's, again, we don't live in a world that It gives us a lot of opportunity to connect with our soul, to connect with our true essence, to really deeply spend time there and be able to create from that place. It's not encouraging that.
We live so fast and there are so many pressures.
Yeah, maybe that's the lesson is I think that ever since I've been very young, I've felt that I'm in school, that this experience is school. And I think things like that, not having... The obvious, like it's because we sort of have to find out what is the stuff that really is fulfilling, really is fulfilling.
Something that makes us feel like we want to continue. Because it can be such a hard world. If we don't have that beauty and that encouragement and everything else, we might as well just jump off a cliff. Absolutely.
No, for sure. For sure. For me, that question is my will to live. Yeah, exactly. If I'm not engaged in that so much. And only from that place can we actually do something positive for the world.
Yes. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Yeah. And so, let's see where we go next. What would be best for you to talk about right now? Would you like to tell more about your story or would you like to tell more about where you're going or would you like to talk about more like spirituality and
the role of spirituality in your life and in your work?
I kind of feel like I want to tell you about my dream last night. Go for it.
Go for it. Let's go. Let's do this.
I have these little short dreams. Sometimes I have a long, complex dream, right? But sometimes what will happen is I'm being given a message and it's very short. And if I don't understand it right away, I get it the next night. If I still don't understand, I get it.
And I get it over and over again until I understand it. So, like, Probably about 10 days ago, I had one where I was trying to light up the stars in the sky. And I just couldn't remember when I'd wake up how I was doing. It had something to do with colors. I had to do the color.
I couldn't remember. And then one morning I wake up and I could remember that it was very simple, but I had to light up all the stars in my body and that lit up all the stars in the sky. So it's things like that. That was actually very powerful. You told me about the dreams. I remember.
You and I were talking about this a little before we started the podcast, but how I feel like there's been a shift ever since that Himalayan disaster that flooded Nepal. I mean, and I got extremely, extremely sensitive and stopped smoking after smoking for 50 years. I mean, I just... I just became super sensitive after that event,
because I felt like, oh my gosh, here we are, we're going into a new cycle here, and it's like serious. And one of the things I've been dreaming about these last few nights has been the number 10. And 10 in Pythagorean... Pythagorean, Hebrew, and Greek mythology, well, I just said Pythagorean is Greek,
Hebrew and Egyptian, the 10 is the beginning of a new cycle. So the 1 to 9, or the Enneads, which are the foundational gods and goddesses, right? Are the foundational gods and goddesses because they are used again in every cycle.
So by the time you get to the first cycle 10, you're using 1-0, then 1-1, 1-2, 1-3, 1-4. So you're recombining those basic nine, right? So it's been seen cross-culturally as the beginning of the new cycle. And I started dreaming about just the number 10. So the first night that I understood what it was telling me,
I was told that the 10 was the Whisper of Angels. So that was beautiful, but it didn't really tell me too much, right? It just was pretty. And last night, I had to look up the word, and I've already forgotten it. Let me see what it's called. What is that form that looks like? I wrote it down.
Yeah. It looks like a vagina, and it surrounds the saints or Christ. It's called the viscapisse.
Ah, I know it in French only, mandorle.
No? Oh, maybe. The Greek name for it is the visca piscasus or something like that.
Yeah, it's in French. I don't know what it's called in English.
I have to look it up again. But anyway, it looks like the form of a female sex and often it surrounds a saint or the Mother Mary or the Christ. Anyway, so the number 10 looks like this and it was just Gorgeous, it was ornate, it was copper, and it was all decorated.
And I realized in the dream, First of all, I said, oh my gosh, the 10 will be kingly or is it queenly? And I couldn't quite know if it was masculine or feminine. And when I woke up, I realized it was probably both.
And anyway, it's like the one zero, which is the binary information for all computers, right? So that's male, female, you know, at the base of the binary. And I realized also after thinking about it this morning, That it's really the beginning of a new cycle. Like even though these terrible things are happening,
it's supposed to get hotter next year and colder in the winters and all these terrible things are supposed to happen to the earth. You know, at the same time, I feel like humanity and the earth is going through its, I call it the pimple theory. Like the pimple has now popped.
It's draining, so it's at its ugliest point when it's draining. It's really ugly, but it's only by draining that we're going to heal it. Totally. And this is the beginning of this new cycle, and it will be royal. It will be something that is absolutely beautiful for all sentient living creatures.
And sentient, well, that could be anything, right? Because I think the wind and the earth and the air and all the elements are sentient.
Absolutely.
Absolutely. So I think that we're moving into a very, very powerful moment in life. It's going to be difficult, but beautiful.
Difficult, but beautiful. That sounds like my life. Mine too. Welcome to Earth. You know what? Yes. You know what? It also made me think of your dream and that shape that you're talking about.
Yeah.
The tarot card, the world.
Yes, absolutely. That's exactly, she's inside that. Absolutely, 100%. Yep. I should look it up. You know, I actually did ask Google, which has its own AI. I asked it, what is that vegetable shape? And it told me right away. I'm going to get it right now. Around Saints.
I just want to say one thing.
Yes.
Okay, I'm so sad for Gemini, the AI of Google. I'm so sad for it because honestly, most people, when they want to engage with a large language model like ChatGPT or Cloud or whatever you use, they just go to their website and they start asking their questions, okay?
Right.
With Gemini, people are just Googling shit. So basically, Gemini is kind of like, you know, those poor, it's horrible, the training ponies, you know, that everybody gets on and people are being all nasty. Like when I talk to AI, I say, hi, thank you. And all that stuff. When I talk to that poor Gemini, I'm on Google.
So I'm like, hey, what's the blah, blah? No, hi, no, thank you. No, nothing. Because I'm just doing a search. And every time I'm like, poor guy. Like, that's really the training pony of everybody here. Like, poor AI. The fact that it's actually on the Google, you know, search engine, I think it's really hurting it.
Oh, my God. It's so hilarious because it's exactly that. And you... I remember right when AI was starting, you said to me, I'm always polite to the AI. Oh, yes. And I was like, she's right. And I'm always polite. But it's true. I just Googled it. Right now, I didn't say please. I didn't say anything like that.
No, it's horrible. They should protect that poor Gemini. It's getting hurt by everybody. It should be a link that you go to. But they still want to encourage. And it's a bit like, you know, we do that to ourselves. Instead of protecting what is vulnerable in us and all that,
we just like put ourselves on some fucking market. Doesn't matter if it's the art market, if it's the seduction market, it doesn't matter. But we put stuff that is vulnerable in front of people because we still want to push it and we want stuff to happen.
But actually all we do is actually make ourselves, or at least that situation can happen. And I'm really like... Protect that poor Gemini, it's getting treated badly, you know.
Oh, say thank you to it. Just now, it gave me the answer, and just like in French, mandorla, which is the Italian word for almond. That's it. And the Latin one is vesica piscis, which means fish bladder. Ah, yeah, totally. I don't think it's a fish bladder. I think it's something else.
But I'm also thinking of the fish because yesterday I was listening to a super interesting conversation actually about AI and they were talking about the fish as the symbol of Christ before the cross.
Right. That's why we're coming out of Pisces. Yeah. Yes.
And that's super, super crazy symbolism of Neptune like and the fishes and Pisces and all that. Yeah. So anyway, whatever. Okay. Moving right along. Yeah. So dreams and that dream and a new period, you think?
Yeah, I feel like we're definitely shifting in. And at first, when that terrible thing happened in the pulp, It was like, oh my God, we're moving into this period. We're moving in, you know, we're really Kali Yuga apocalyptic moment. And it was like the 10 was a reassurance that like, don't be so naive and paranoid.
You know, everything happens. Everything has its time. Everything has its place. And actually, what we're moving into will be royal. The 10 is the new The new cycle, and it will be royal, because it will be this moment of clairvoyance, of waking up. This is our huge wake-up call for humanity. Like, what the fuck are we doing?
And I know that the plant medicine, a few years ago, when I was still working with plants, I would... Whenever I'd go on these journeys, I'd always cry for the earth at some point. I'd always be like, why are we so stupid? What are we doing to the earth? You know,
the sophistication of all these beautiful fish and corals and the birds and the insects, just these incredible things, and we're wiping everything out. You know, so I would get super upset. And the ayahuasca, which is really the grandmother of all the plants, She said, oh, come on, stop it now.
She said, do you think Great Spirit made a mistake?
I remember that story. Yeah.
And so she was like, you know, everything has its time and its place. And there is a moment if we were in paradise all the time, we would not appreciate our water, our air, our earth, but by losing our water, We're like, oh my gosh, what are we doing? The water is sacred. The air is sacred.
You don't miss your water until the well is dry.
Well, it's like the prodigal son situation where you take the thing for granted until you lose it. If you can return, that's beautiful. If you cannot return, that's messed up. And sometimes in our life, we cannot return and that sucks. But I don't think that's how deeply the world actually works or life works or the universe works.
You know, that there is such a thing as the return, which is a big theme. I'm thinking of, I'm slowly, slowly studying Taoism a little bit more. Oh, it's beautiful. I'm such a fan. Me too. Like I started reading the Tao Te Ching like early on, very early on. Yeah, me too. I got very struck by it.
I must have been 18 or 19 when I opened it. Yeah, me too. And I was really like, oh my God, what am I reading? But you know, It's nice and all to understand the power of something. It's a whole different question to actually apply it to your life for real.
Of course.
And to deeply understand it experientially, that's a whole different ballgame. Absolutely. I don't know if you have that, but most of the stuff that I'm learning that is mind-blowing to me, if I had to explain it to somebody, it sounds kind of trite. Like already, but it's because it's not intellectually them getting those things.
It's to a degree that I can actually practice and experience them in my body for real. Absolutely. And that's a whole different game, you know?
Well, that's the role of the artist because like, for example, you know, I've had... Amazing voyages, ayahuasca, whatever, or amazing dreams. And to try to put that in a painting or writing is almost impossible. And so it's this huge challenge to sort of portray or to...
Invoke or to communicate this incredible experience, which goes so far beyond words. It's something you have to experience. So what you want to do is make it experiential.
Yeah, exactly. And you have all people really, really work on that stuff of dreams. And I've been drawing my dreams sometimes. But never really truly as an art project, just for myself. You know, like kind of doing kind of, you know, little girl drawing of my dreams.
Like I had one crazy dream where I died and was reborn several times in another life. Yeah. And at one point I was in a casino world. It was so weird. It was awesome. And so I drew that stuff. But I never really, really went for it. I probably will at some point and soon.
But All that you say, what I was thinking of is yes. I wanted to ask you, because that experience that you talked about, that thing of having a real sense, like a real embodied experience of just, let's say, a total reality that is really all-encompassing and is almost oceanic and really that deep sense of almost transcendence.
I'm thinking wanting to put that into matter in one way that is beautiful and like that would be art a lot of times, you know, that's one reason to make art. When I was a kid, I remember I started making like drawing when I was two years old and I never really stopped.
And when I was about six or seven, I remember seeing sundown and like a sunrise and sunset. And I was just like, I felt terrible because I was like, this is too beautiful. What am I to do now that I've received that? And I remember that for me, drawing,
making drawings and trying to make them beautiful was my only response to that. I don't know what to do, so I'm going to try to make something pretty just because I can't stay with this thing inside of me and not do anything with it because it's going to fuck me up. There was a sense of indebtedness.
Yes, like you need to give back something because you've been given such beauty. You need to give back. I understand that.
I didn't know what to do with myself looking at that beauty. I was like, I didn't. And I still to this day, when I see a sunset or sunrise, I don't know what to do with myself. It makes me, how do you say that? Like restless and like, oh, what's going on? This is too beautiful.
I don't know what to do. You know, like that. And there's really a sense of, I need to give some beauty to the world too, you know, because this is like, I can't stay with this. And my sense is, is that artists try to do that. It's so hard.
If you take in the sunset or whatever is just ridiculously awe-inspiring to you and you take it in, pushing it out through art is like, if you manage to push out a tiny little fart of that shit, I don't know who you are. You're fucking Rembrandt. It's so hard to do, to actually push out that thing.
It is.
It's true. I always say nature, first of all, is my favorite artist. Of course. Because it's so mind-blowing when I look at things like even like an insect, when you start looking at them close up through those macro lenses. I know. I'm like so blown away. It's like crazy. I know.
And any form you can imagine seems to have been manifested on this earth. It's like this is where consciousness just multi-manifests. Yeah.
And not just that. Not only is it gorgeous looking, but on top of it, it's conscious. It's like, what? I remember being, you remember when I had my surgery? It was in 2021. I had a surgery.
Yeah.
And I had a full-blown mystical experience during my recovery phase, which is not surprising considering how crazy it was as a period with the surgery
and everything.
And I remember lying down in bed, you know, when I was recovering, I was in pain. Like I'm talking nine out of 10 pain all the fucking time. And the only thing I could do, it was sunny, it was in the late fall. But it was sunny and gorgeous.
And I remember lying down and looking at the trees that I could see from my window. And I saw that big fly that was all shiny because of the sunshine. And she was, I say she because in French we say it's a she. She was flying around like, you know, those big, big flies.
Yeah.
And I was like, look at how gorgeous this is. And it's conscious. Like that, like Blue Mom, I just couldn't get over it. Like the OG artist that we have in the universe and in the world, like that's the OG artist. What is OG? Original. Oh, okay. And it's like.
For a long time, I thought it's not good to be an artist. You should be saving the little kids in Africa. This is wrong. Seriously, I felt like it was selfish to be an artist simply because it gave me so much joy and it was so exciting. You're lighting
this up. Put the stars up in yourself so you can light up the stars in the sky.
I completely came back from that. But there was some of that, I think some, you know, like messed up late stage Christianity got into me.
Of course, of course. Of like sacrifice and martyrdom.
Yeah. Yeah. There was some of that vibe getting into me. And so I had to deal with that for a long time. But what I'm trying to say is when I realized how much the universe or the world, like it's such a work of art. It's like.
Yeah.
How could whatever is divine not adore artists? Yeah. Because you're like little mini-me's for it, you know.
Exactly.
Don't you feel like all humans are so creative by default?
Absolutely. Everyone, and I always say that even if you don't want to express it through music or art or theater, even being a scientist, you know, like some scientists, they are so creative. Absolutely. Absolutely. Mathematicians, you can be creative on every level. And the important thing is to be creative. Because if you're not,
you kind of have this V, you have this emptiness, this unfulfilled... You know how many times I get people who go... Oh, you're so lucky to be an artist. I'm like, well, be lucky to be what you are. Everybody gets to be lucky.
And you can be artful in any way. But however, I'm saying that and I mean it. It's like you could totally build a post office and make it artful. Like in your way, with your vibe and your thing, you know, like you could do anything in a way that is deeply individual,
deeply loving, has an eye for deep beauty, has meaning into it. Like everything, you can make a cake, you can sweep the floor, you can do whatever. However, that being said, I'm still human. And so whenever I had and might have, To get a day job and be in a place where I have to do mindless work.
So horrible. It's horrible. It's like I want to die. I want to fucking die. And every time I'm berating myself, I'm like, Yasmin, that's what you have right now to work with. This is your medium. Make it artsy. Come on. Stop shitting on it. Make it artsy.
But it's so hard because you're in a place where nobody's making it artsy. Everybody has a mask on and looks fucking depressed. And it gives you big fake smiles. And it's like...
I know. It's the ultimate challenge, you know? If we have our paintbrushes in front of us, it's easy because it's our medium and we can do it with pleasure. But when you're in some terrible situation, I've thought about this, you know, like, Sitting and waiting in the tax office,
you know, whatever it is, you know, it's just so terrible. And I'm thinking, okay, I have, I'm being shown, or even, you know, whenever I get in these weird moments where I'm not in my, you know, I'm not centered in my own, you know, good feelings, you know, I always think, well, this is why I'm here.
This is why I'm being shown. You know, this is why I have this class because obviously I need it.
You know? Yeah, totally. I mean, same I could say when it comes to like, you know, like horrible situations like that. And I'm thinking in a way my ultimate goal for myself in terms of self-development is that I can do everything artfully.
Exactly. So we're being tested. And I always tell younger people too, you know, that They have their difficulty. And I said, okay, you're going to get through this, but the school is till you die. The reason we are here is it's like I found in my own life is that I'll get
through one hurdle and one phase of understanding, but guess what happens? The bar just goes higher.
Yeah. And it's a good old thing. You get better problems. They're more interesting.
Yeah, it's true. It's not like, I mean, I wouldn't change my consciousness for my 20-year-old consciousness.
No, my God.
Same. So I definitely developed and my life is better than when I was 20. Yeah. You know, on many, many levels, you know, maybe not my body, but... Well, your body... My neck!
And then again, I don't really believe in that linear thinking, even about the body. Yeah. I think we develop certain capacities with our body with age. If we age, you know, with full acceptance of the process and actually full, you know, like valuing the process,
I think our body has developed certain things that we don't have when we're younger. That's my sense.
Well... The way I look at this sort of deterioration of the body, because it's what's happening, it's a machine, and everything is going to go towards deterioration at some point, is that if I was 90 years old and my body was as perfect as it was when I was 20, I'd never want to leave it, ever.
It would seem cruel. But by the time you're 90 and it's all sort of falling apart, you're like, whoa, I am so ready now.
Absolutely. And there's absolute truth to that. And I absolutely agree on one level. I also have an experience, you know, that I struggled with eating disorders for a very long time. I was very anorexic and bulimic, of course, because if you're a successful anorexic, you become a bulimic at some point. So that's the deal.
But anyway, I had healing dreams about my body that really intimated, like... Basically showed me another reality about the body that I was not at all expecting. I used to see it as basically, you know, the flesh suit, the tool that I had. And I used it relentlessly in ways that were extremely brutal.
I used to identify in a way with my body in the sense that I could hurt myself. I could hurt my body. That was not a problem. And I had dreams that showed me how incredibly... I mean, first that the body... It's not me. And it's alive. And it's not me. It's my friend. It's my friend.
It's my companion for this life. It's my closest companion for this life.
Beautiful.
And I fell in love with my body in that way where I realized how much I hurt it and how much I loved it.
Oh, I love that.
Like I had a series of healing dreams. And one of the dreams was that I... I was working in an office with a woman who was a secretary and she had an ugly face, but she had a gorgeous body and I wanted that body. And she liked my face. And so she wanted to, we decided to switch.
So not like I would be in her body and she'd be in mine. And so I got into her body and she got in my body and I saw myself for the first time from the outside.
Oh, I have goosebumps.
My God, I saw her, which was my body, with my body. And I saw my face and I remembered how much that face, that was my soulmate. That was, I was so in love with her. And not because I found her particularly gorgeous looking for, you know, it's not that. I recognized that face, like, I love you.
I'm so sorry. What have I done?
And I woke up,
it was amazing. And I woke up being like, I need to get back into my body. I lost my body.
That would be an awesome painting of you both, the switcheroos looking at each other. What an awesome painting.
Yeah, it would actually be quite hard to make it into a painting, I'm thinking. No. Because it's so much... Yeah, but like... Yeah, I mean, we can talk about it on the podcast. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, if you have ideas. But... But yeah, so all that you say, like to me, the body, I see more like,
as you would see, for instance, you're familiar, like that animal that is always with you and always is a sign of your presence. Like, I have like a very big love story right now with my body.
Beautiful. That's what we need. Because it is sort of, I mean, I love the idea of it being your best friend, you know.
I mean, it's always there trying to do everything to serve all your whims and everything you want to do. It's like, yeah, yeah, I'm here. I'm going to do this. You heard it and it's like, I don't care. I'm still going to do this. It's amazing.
And it's like mind, body, and soul. Each one of them is an important part of this experience, you know, and they each have it equally.
Mind, heart, body, and soul, I would say.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And... Well, there you go. You've got the four... In a way, that's what the magician uses in the tarot, you know, the mind, the swords, the heart, the cups, the body, the action, right? That's the wand. Well, I guess that's where it gets... I guess it could be...
The body could be the manifest, could be the pentacles as well. Oh, totally. Yeah. The soul... It's sort of all encompassing the action. I guess it's not a complete fit.
Maybe it's not a complete fit, but to me like it's those four.
There are major tools, tools for spirit. Yeah. To be able to manifest and experience this world. Totally. I had a dream, a menopause dream when I was starting to go through menopause. Yeah. That was very interesting that concerned that. It's a funny dream. Do you want to hear it? Yeah. So I was in this sultan's palace.
And it was extremely ornate. I was in this big circular room. And it had a recessed part of the room in the center where it went downward. Into this lower space and the sultan was standing in that lower part of the room and he had a big sex chair. And around the outer periphery of the room,
which was really ornate, it was a palace room, around the outer periphery were three cages and each one of them, I was in each one of them. So in the first cage, I'm looking through the bars, and I'm looking at that sex chair, and the sultan, he's kind of fat.
He's like this fat, older man that's got a big turban, and he's kind of like, he's creepy. Very lusty. And I go, okay, I don't need that. I don't want to be with him. And so I said, I got to get out of this cage. I'm out of here.
So I turned myself into a butterfly so that I can go through the bars of the cage. And I'm going up out and all his guards are trying to catch me. And he goes, oh, wow. If she can change into a butterfly like that, you just got to let her go.
Then I go to the next cage and I'm in there as well. And I look through the cage at that chair in the Sultan and I think, Well, maybe I'll come back on Wednesday.
And then... Wednesday session with the salsa and on the sex chair.
Then I go to the last cage and I'm not in it. I'm sitting on top of it. And it's kind of like eyes wide shut. I've got this really sexy outfit and garter belt and stockings and a mask. And I say, the key is knowing how to use this body.
Then another part, I go to another part of the dream and it's a really long dream. But I get out anyway. I want to just concentrate on this part of the dream. So when I wake up, I realize that the first one is my soul, the second one is my mind, and the last one is my body.
It's body, mind, and soul responding to the sexual experience that I've been, you know, and I was very... I mean, it's not like after menopause you don't have any more sexual feelings. You do. You come back on Wednesday. But it doesn't take the same sort of importance that I had given it before.
When I was younger, everything was about seduction. Everything was about seduction. And it was so important. And I even wrote an erotic fairy tale in 2007. And, you know, I mean, it was... The whole seductiveness was pivotal and central to sort of the way I acted in a lot of ways.
Absolutely.
And that changed. What happened is my spiritual sense became central instead.
This is so interesting. That happened to you basically at menopause?
Yeah. Yeah. I call it the menopause dream. I've been meaning to paint it.
Yeah, that would be a good painting.
It would be a good painting, yeah. And it's amazing. I talked to another very good friend of mine who also went through menopause and said to me, it's amazing how central the act of seduction was to my life. And I said, yeah. And it is. You don't really notice it when you're in the middle of it,
but you certainly notice it when you step outside of it. And I remember once my mother said... Everything is seduction, you know, because she really went to her death believing that, you know, she never sort of broke out of it. And so even at 80 years old, she didn't want her husband to see her without makeup.
Because it was so important for her to be beautiful on that level. And we're so, like we were saying earlier, you just need a beautiful smile and sincerity to be beautiful.
Well, beauty, that's not beauty. Like there's a difference between sexual attractiveness and beauty.
Those are two very different things. 100%. But that's where the confusion, especially for women, lies.
Absolutely. But let me see. I would probably, you know, we could totally have other, other shows, you know, at some point to just have other, like more, more pointed conversations if we wanted to, but I'm just thinking like, I mean, if you're, yeah, if we wanted to, that could be something.
I'm totally open to any of that. Yeah.
Cool. So, you know, maybe at one point we'll just like have that. Okay. We want to have this conversation, but I would like several things. Um, Yeah, that's the thing that I wanted to ask you and that I didn't get to. For you, what was the original intent of art making? When did you start making art?
And for you, what do you feel was inhabiting you when you first started? Why do you think you first started? I mean, I started when I was two, but I remember I told you about that story with the sunset and everything where I really had a sense of, oh, that's why I'm making this.
But in your case, what's your origin story as an artist?
That's a good question. I never thought about it, actually. And unlike you, I don't even remember when I started making art. I just knew that I loved it more than anything. That and writing. I used to write stories once I could write. And I always, just any time I could make art, I would make art.
And my mom was an artist. I just was convinced that I was going to be an artist and a writer when I grew up. And there was part of me that wanted to be a priest as well because I was so upset that we didn't believe in it in our household that I was like,
okay, but I'll be the priest when I grow up. So those were the three major things, writing, spirituality, and art. Since my earliest, that's what I really remember loving and wanting to do for the rest of my life, you know, getting married to that right in the beginning. But I don't,
like for you, this idea of giving back the beauty to the world, it's very specific. I don't remember ever having a specific thing like that. However, as I grew older, as we've talked about, I realized that, like back to your very first question on the podcast where you said, uh,
This common thread of divinity that runs through my writing and my painting, being able to express that through my writing and painting, I know today that that's a huge motivating factor. Because just like when we were talking, I'm like, I need to paint this. Oh my God, you're telling me your dream.
I'm like, you need to paint that. For me, I'm a symbolist. There is no doubt about it. I don't do abstract art. It doesn't mean I don't like it. It's just that's not me. And I'm definitely a symbolist. I'm definitely telling a story through my art. So that is a big motivator to communicate.
Even if somebody doesn't understand the exact thing that I went through, it doesn't matter. Because once you put art out into the world, it becomes the viewer's mirror. And the viewer is going to see what they need to see. So that's between them and the painting. But for me,
the origin of it is to portray whatever powerful experience I've seen, dreamt about, felt, experienced through that medium of either writing or painting. So it was more of an understanding later in life as opposed to very early.
Yeah, yeah, I hear you. That's very interesting. Makes me think, like, you know, that story that I told you about the sunset and all that? Yeah. I think that was more like an experience, but I think, like, the original thing has to do with that, but it's not the only thing.
I think that's definitely what you're talking about. Just, like, everything, if you look at a plant growing, it wants to express itself. It wants to be themselves in the world, like, to express what it has. Like, it gives fruits, and it's a very normal thing. Like you see the plants, you know, going through the cracks,
you know, that old story that says so much about what life wants to be. And to me, like, that's why I think that all humans are some form of artists one way or another is because I think it's part of us. It's, you know, it's just part of us. We want to give the fruits that we have.
Absolutely. A hundred percent.
Yeah. And I'm always
thinking, I'm sorry.
No, no, please go on.
No, I'm always thinking about an analogy similar to what you're saying is that what's so interesting to me, and I've thought about this many times before, is that when that plant does give of itself, it just grows and it just says, here I am, and it opens itself to its full potential, its full beauty.
And we humans are so different. We're like Often, I mean, I think plant medicine has really helped me with this, but, you know, we can be scared to be our fullest potential.
It's terrifying.
Yeah, as if we're not worth it, or like what you were saying before, do I have the right to do this? It's too pleasurable. You know, whatever the construct that our mind has tricked us into. There's many, many constructs. But it's like often I'm like,
well, why can't we just be like a plant and just be like, here I am. It's not like I'm better than anyone else. It's just each one of us has our own particular magnificence. Totally. Why can't we just do that like the plant? Why are we always like, oh, am I good enough? Am I worth it?
Am I this? Am I that? Well, my sense is like, totally.
I mean, and that's, it's such a good point. And my sense is, you know, I live really in a very urban environment. And here I have a tree in front of my house that has been planted in a pot and that is standing there just in front of my house.
And it has little plants at the bottom, close to its roots. It has all kinds of little flowers and plants there. And what do they get? They get basically the fumes of the cars. They get people throwing their trash in it. They get all kinds of stuff that basically make it difficult for them to express their fullness.
And if you look at what I was saying before, the cracks and the concrete and the little plants going through it. To me, culture is that kind of concrete and the fumes that we get. We don't live in a very healthy tank.
We live in a culture that is made of a lot of fears, a lot of trauma. And all that stuff is kind of a crust. Like if you look at a human's heart, I see it as such a pure and gorgeous thing, so powerful and pure and gorgeous. And around it, there's that crust of bullshit.
They come from early trauma, fears, inherited ancestral patterns that have been so violent and never really accounted for, never really truly felt. I come from a people that was colonized and really just like, you can imagine what it does, that's like killing and raping and it's horrible. And we have to deal with that then.
And then how do you express yourself in that gorgeous plant-like thing? It's like, you need the right soil. And you need the right environment. And if you're not in that, and to me, that idea of the right soil is what do you feed yourself with? Do you watch the news constantly and just binge on stuff?
What's getting inside of you? What's the soil you're planting your roots in? Is it deep? Is it nourishing? What is it? So to me, it makes sense that like if we were that kind of like human plants, like seeking to give our fruits, it makes sense that if we are in an environment that's actually,
I mean, you see how when you are in certain places, you get so creative. When I was in California last year, I got like crazy because I was like a Joshua Tree, you know, I went to Joshua Tree. I went to like, I drove like all the way in nature and I was in a state,
I cannot tell you, I felt so excited, so me, so good. And like, it's also that, you know, are you in the right environment? And in terms of the stories that I told you, you know, you're a storyteller. What stories are you consuming?
Yeah. And I love the analogy of the tree outside your window because at the same time, even though the poor thing is getting like cigarette butts or whatever people throw in pots, you know, they do. And, uh, It still just pushes through and it just still tries to give its best.
But it's only when its soil is really rich that it can give its total best.
Exactly.
And it's an excellent analogy.
I'm an analogy machine, Liba. That's all I do all day, every day.
At the same time, in terms of, okay, so for example, you know, Chateau de Chem, which is one of the best wines in the world. It's made, it's grown in a monastery that was given to the monks by some, I don't remember, you'd have to look it up on Google, some duke or some aristocratic family.
And they gave them really the shittiest ground. Well, guess what? The fact that it was the shittiest ground and that it was hard and it was difficult made
the best
wine. Totally. And that's the paradox. Absolutely. Because it's when we have to fight for it that we really come true.
I so believe in that. I so believe in that. And I think if you take it far enough, you get there.
Yeah, yeah.
And you become that aged, gorgeous thing that has, you know, like been refined. If you look at samurai swords, the way they bang that motherfucker, I mean, they're just like hurting that baby. Like they go on and on and on, just like, you know, it's very violent. Yeah, they beat it up.
And it becomes that like hair thin, crazy sword. But it has to be beat up to a point that is terrible. And in a way, yeah, that's the paradox. It's like you have those two kind of... That is the paradox.
Yeah. Well, that's duality. I love in the Sefer Yetzirah, it says that even though when we're thrown, it makes a comparison. I'm not going to know the verse verbatim. I'm just giving you the idea of the verse. That even though we're thrown out into the chariot of good and bad and this cycle that's so complex,
there is a covenant that has been made that we can always come home. And I always love that. It's one of my favorite verses in there because we can come home and home is the center, you know, and we all have the same center because we're one being, but... It's such a hard, the chariot itself,
you know, this whole sort of school of good and bad and everything else. And you really do have to, you know, be that great that's trying to get through that very difficult terrain just to become a good vine. You know, and it pays off, but... Eventually,
this covenant that we have this beauty inside ourselves and that it will come through everything in the end if we just persist and we believe and we have... Trust is huge. Faith is huge. And that's something, like I said, the ayahuasca told me... Stop crying for the earth. There is a time and a place for everything.
There's a time to be angry at what we're doing to the earth. Then there's a time to be sad about it. And then there's a time to know that Great Spirit did not make a mistake, that there is a reason we have to lose things so we can appreciate and wake up our compassion,
our empathy, our All these things get woken up only through this terribleness. And we need this very dark night for the star to sparkle.
And it's so dark. Myself, I can't take the animal suffering.
Oh, if I can't look at it, I can't. It sinks. And same with children. Like if you show me one more child being taken and tortured and this whole Gaza thing and all these wars and oh my God, I have to stop looking. It just makes me, I've given money, I've given.
But I can't look at it all the time in my feed. I just want to run under the bed.
I mean, to me, you even talk about a story. I remember when I went back to university last year and the guy was talking about just a story about a horse and what happened to it. Because it was a sculpture, blah, blah. Futurists, Italian futurists were looking at that.
And anyway, I was like, the guy was not realizing he was fucking killing me. I was like, I need to get out of the room. Like I can't hear this. But even in order to tell that story without telling people, hey, I'm going to tell you this story because it's useful for the class.
However, it's an extremely violent story. So if you want to leave, just leave. I'm not saying, you know, I'm not, especially for trigger warnings and stuff. It's not really my dope, but this is like rough. And I didn't, I wasn't angry at him. I didn't, I didn't feel entitled to him, you know,
Like telling me in advance or anything, but I remember really being in pain and I couldn't listen to him because I was just like, just taking a blow of hearing what he had to say about our animal. So it's like, it's extreme in my case. And so that's one.
No, I'm the same way. I a hundred percent hear you. A hundred percent. And I'll tell you.
And I also hear what you're saying about, you know, what ayahuasca, like what the spirit of ayahuasca told you, like I totally get it.
And there is a time and place for it. Like there was, if you have never understood how fur is made, if you've never understood how industrial animals live and are killed, you need to see that. So there is a time for that. Oh yeah, there's a time for that shock.
But once you've gotten it, how many times do you have to see it? Exactly. You don't have to convince me.
I became a vegetarian when I was like 18 just because of that. Yeah, me too. I'm good. I heard the message. Thank you very much. But then again, yeah, anyway, I mean, this is too big for me. But okay, so let's maybe wrap up for now.
Yes, we'll go eat, stuff our little mouths with food now.
Yes, precisely. And then work more. I'm working on that drawing right now, which I think I'm thinking of doing just like a kind of little Oracle card stuff. Oh, nice. Yeah. It just came in like I was like, you know, what could I do with this?
And then I'm like, oh, that could be a fun Oracle card situation. So I'm just finishing. It's a big drawing that I'm doing right now. It's really fun. So I'm just going to go back to that. What are you going to do today?
So I have three things I'm doing today. So I'm working on a painting that is from a dream. It's very similar to that light up the star dream, but it's totally different. It's one I had about five, six years ago. And it was this woman and she was the light vessel in a dark space.
She was like a Moroccan lamp with all the little cutouts and the light was flooding through her. And lighting up the room. So I've made three women and they're kind of like Sufi dancers with their hands. They're swirling dervishes. And they're going to be in the night sky in a forest.
And so the light that they're reflecting is reflecting on the ground and the trees. And it's so brainy and difficult to do. I'm like, ah.
You're great at it. I love how you're great at that.
It's a challenge and it's good. So I'm working on that. I'm working on finishing editing my book, which is coming out, being launched in December. And I'm going to the massage therapist to work on my neck at four o'clock.
So I've got lots of things, lots of things,
but all good stuff. And by the way, for your Oracle deck, you know that you gave me that one and only poster or print of your star. Yes. And I have that framed up in my atelier. Well, when you come here, because I found a nice frame for it.
And when you come here again, you're going to see I've transformed the whole space.
It still feels like the old
space, but totally different.
I'm so, so impatient to see it. I can't wait.
I can't wait to show you. Yeah, well, we're going to do our collaboration. It's going to be fucking wild.
It's going to be amazing.
It's going to be amazing.
I'm so happy we get to do that.
Yeah, yeah. We're blessed. We're blessed. That's true.
Is there anything that you would like people to hear about? Like, you know, anything you have going on? I mean, I will post, you know, links to everything. But is there anything you would like
to talk about? I guess the big exciting thing for me this year, because I actually have four shows coming up, but the big exciting thing is my solo at the end of the year in Gallery D Sweet Beasts, because we're going to launch my second book of the trilogy, and they're giving me a retrospective.
So I have a whole bunch of new things, plus the older stuff that was never for sale. Which I can show here because it's a retrospective.
Oh, you got to give me the date for that one.
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