S02E01 Matilde Digmann | Magic in the Trenches
Last month, I sat down with Matilde to talk about art, money, the Magic and the shadow.
[Listen on Spotify]
[Watch on YouTube]
We get into how she started making art, why pricing your work low can be a rebellious act, the whole "addicted artist" archetype. We talk surrender, service, keeping your ego out of the work, and what it actually means to be a channel for some Whatever-you-call-a-higher-power. Also: neurodivergence, hyperfocus, stupid prayers, and finding joy in the trenches when the work gets hard… Anyway, check out the chapters for a full breakdown.
Mat (Matilde Digmann) — is a multidisciplinary artist, author, publisher, podcast host, illustrator, art director and all-round creative entrepreneur who has built an independent career at the intersection of art, publishing, and personal transformation… In short, she rocks.
If you enjoyed this episode, you know what to do to help me: like & subscribe, drop a review, all that stuff… And shoot me a message if you want to comment or ask a question. I’d be touched.
SHOW NOTES
Her Zuckies:
https://www.instagram.com/matildedigmann
https://www.facebook.com/matilde.digmann/
Podcast Shadow Work: https://www.instagram.com/shadowwork_podcast/
Her publishing house: https://buenagentepublishing.org/work
The Art Hangouts! https://www.hybridity.studio/art-hangouts
Mentioned in the show
Julia Cameron’s The Artist’s Way: https://juliacameronlive.com/book/the-artists-way-a-spiritual-path-to-higher-creativity/
Steven Pressfield’s The War of Art: Break Through the Blocks and Win Your Inner Creative Battles
https://stevenpressfield.com/books/the-war-of-art/
Quoted somewhere: Outkast (the band from Atlanta, I mean)… Get a free mentoring session if you can recognize where :) https://www.hybridity.studio/mentorship
📺 Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@hybriditystudio
♻️ Spotify: https://tinyurl.com/spotifythw 🍏 Apple: https://tinyurl.com/applethw
→ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/yasmine8weiss/
→ Substack: https://yasmineweiss.substack.com/
→ A Playlist to Practice Giving a Sh!t : https://tinyurl.com/howtogiveash-t
CHAPTERS
00:00 - Intro
03:06 - Start
04:36 - How Matilde started making art. Losing yourself and finding your way back to authentic self expression.
06:00 - Art, value and money
09:44 - How Matilde makes $$$ and art work together.
13:05 - Pricing low as rebellion. The psychology of prizing in art.
16:43 - Approaching art from the outside-in vs. inside-out
17:48 - Matilde’s path through studies & graphic design
20:42 - The archetype of the addicted/messed up/broke artist + Julia Cameron’s the Artist Way
23:43 - Art + spirituality: surrendering to a Higher Power and being of service
27:55 - Where artists fit in society, being a channel, and keeping ego out of it
32:18 - Trust & vision
33:39 - Authorship & anonymity in art
37:09 - The impact of having an art practice on well-being & spirituality
38:38 - The shadow side — pitfalls of art-making in a messed up world
45:01 - Artmaking as basic self-care for artists
49:04 - Neurodivergence & hyperfocus, self-care and joy
52:04 - Radical acceptance, stupid prayers and the Magic
54:18 - What’s exciting right now? … Or not.
55:46 - Sticking to it when it gets harder
01:00:43 - Joy in the process vs jonesing for results
01:05:07 - Cool challenges + finding joy in the trenches
01:07:46 - Supportive self-care for optimal artmaking
01:09:57 - The importance of art
01:11:27 - Wrap-up
01:12:38 - Outro & Notes
TRANSCRIPT
Yasmine
So I'm I'm so excited to talk to you because I've seen all your stuff. I mean I discovered you through podcasts because yeah I'm I don't know about you but having my hands busy making visual art. I I always listen to podcasts when I do that or music, but a lot of times podcasts. So I've
M
Yeah.
M
Yeah, yeah me too. Yeah.
Yasmine
You too, okay. Yeah, so that's how I actually discovered you and I really enjoyed listening to the episodes of your podcast.
M
amazing, thank you so much. Yeah, it's been a project that I haven't been really touching on for a really long time, but I felt like it was an important, even let's say as an archive, to just leave it there and for people to find it, even though it's... the episodes are like from 2020 most of them, I think.
Yasmine
Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, we do that kind of stuff, like on and off. You can't always be on the bar, especially if it's not your primary thing and it's not how you make your money, you know, I mean
M
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I never made any money off of it, guess so, then it was important also for me to make it to have the conversations. I think like if I didn't have a podcast, I wouldn't have reached out to those artists and had those conversations with them, you know? So it was like maybe it was a way for me to just like, I want to talk to some people.
Yasmine
Mm-hmm.
Yasmine
Yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah. I mean, again, I'm right there with you. yeah, I'm so happy to talk with you. so you you know, like the the the the whole question is that I'm looking at is art and spirituality and how they relate. and I understood that like your spiritual life is a central thing for you.
M
Yeah.
M
Yeah.
M
Yeah, very much.
Yasmine
Yeah, and so I'm wondering like, you know, just to start, I like first question that I would have is simply how did you how and when did you start making art?
M
Well, I started when I was a child. I think I came into the world already an artist from a former life or something. Because when I look at the stuff that I did as a five-year-old doing watercolor paintings and stuff, it looks amazing. I would aspire to do that type of stuff today. So it's more like I think I was born that way and then there was an unlearning of who I actually was that happened through the years, taking me away from my natural path, you know? And that then created some kind of purpose in me because finding my way back has become like my, well, one of the things that I help other artists to do, you know, to like find a way back.
Yasmine
So okay, so so that idea of like the original intention, the re the original impulse and and and way of being of a child with art, you feel is really the the thing to go back to and something that you want to lead people back to.
M
Mm-hmm.
M
Mm-hmm.
M
Well, not everybody. think children are all different and I don't think that all children are inherently born as artists. I think I was. And I've seen, I don't have kids of my own, but I have a niece and two nephews and their approach is very different. Their sensibilities are different. It's like they all come with their own personality and their own interests and stuff. like, I don't know.
So I'm not trying to take people back to being a child. I'm trying to take them back to the dream of becoming an artist that some people have. And then that dream gets destroyed by people telling them that they can't and it's impossible and they can't make money that way. And for me, one of the points that I make is that, of course you can. Like lots and lots of people make money being an artist. It's like a cultural myth we have because there's a fear of artists in this culture that we live in, you know? And I think in society there's wave of people or a big like force trying to scare people away from it. And what I'm saying is it's not for everybody. Not everybody needs to be an artist, but the ones that do, why aren't we allowed to be it? Like, why does it have to have so much shadow? For me anyway, that's what I meant growing up. I don't know how it was for you.
Yasmine
Yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah, go on. Uh-huh. yeah, well art school really like messed me up, like hardcore. it really messed me up. It really told me that my way of expressing things was not right and nobody gave a shit. And that yeah, I mean I I'm an artist in s in spite of art school and I think a lot of people have that experience for sure.
M
Bye-bye.
No, go on.
M
Mm-hmm.
M
Right.
M
Yeah, for sure, for sure. It's so interesting also just like how you approach art, know, I've been watching these documentaries about Danish artists and and galleries and the whole thing like the whole ecosystem of art, right? And about like how you elevate an artist and how you elevate the prices and how you can elevate them, but only if there's international interest in their work and like stuff like this.
And you know, when you get into a museum, then well, then you're like, you're made because then someone like in an institution, like approved of you, gate kept you, you know, and for me, it has never been about that. Like it's never been about that. And I, and of course I'm also, you know, being influenced by all of this programming around money and art. And like, for me, it's so important to keep it separate.
Yasmine
Mm-hmm.
M
separate actually because as soon as money touches art it just like for me makes it like bad basically and Yeah, I don't know. It's so weird that something so precious and so beautiful and so valuable and natural and human can be turned into just this like Investment object basically, you know where it's just about a bunch of people trying to make as much money out of back of an artist as possible, you know, that's how I see it sometimes.
Yasmine
Hmm. This is a difficult conversation, I feel. That the whole question. Because I mean, I I agree with you that when there's money pressure on art, that tends to make me feel a lot less free. and for instance, just a simple one would be whatever has worked for me and whatever has sold, I am tempted to do that again. Whereas that's not where I want to take my art.
M
Yeah.
M
Mm-hmm.
Yasmine
Like that's my I I just that's not where I'm trying to go, you know. But at the same time, the idea that those two need to be fully separate, I wonder if it's not undermining us. And so I'm wondering like, how do you deal with that, like that tension basically, that you have to make a living? And then what's you know, there's money questions put a huge pressure on the artistic process and
M
Mm-hmm.
M
Amen.
M
Hmm.
Yasmine
Your choices, how do you deal with that? Yeah.
M
Yeah, it does. Yeah, I mean, I deal with it in many different ways. think, you know, one of them is that I also have like a business where I do graphic design, illustration, not that much anymore, but I still have a few like kind of bigger clients or bigger projects every year that are like recurring every year that I do like a book, a yearly book, for instance, for a client. And like I have some illustration clients and stuff.
And when I'm doing that, I'm working for money, right? So I'm drawing for money. So I'm expecting the clients to come back and say, like, we don't like that color. And then I'll change it. I'll be like, OK, well, you guys are paying me. But whereas in the role of an artist, I'd be like, well, I'm not changing anything because this is exactly what I wanted to put out. So I think separating it for me has been great. And also keeping a foot in another world, because it seems like very much the art world doesn't want to pay artists and like it's the general thing like that you're having too much fun so we shouldn't pay you or something I don't know like it's also layered right but I feel like for me coming from the commercial side from graphic design illustration where where clients understand that this type of thing skill craft to cause money has been good you know because it allowed me to also charge for my art and
When it comes to making money off of it, think having the different income sources is important. But also for me, it's been to keep my prices reasonable so a normal family can buy a piece of my work without it being like 17,000 or something. It's approachable for normal human beings. So it's not an investment object. That's not what I ever aim for. So that makes my client base way bigger, know, like the amount of people who can approach my work is way, bigger than a really famous artist who's charging millions for one piece. So those are some of the things how I approach it. mainly having different sources of income, so I never put that pressure on my art that it has to sell. That's the main reason for making it. And that being said, of course, I know what sells and sometimes I make some of them.
Yasmine
Mm.
M
just because it's nice to sell something every once in a while, you know?
Yasmine
Yeah, of course. Yeah, that's that's great. Thank you. and yeah, I'm just thinking that keeping your prices low in terms of the actual art that you make is like in and of itself, that's almost you know, a kind of rebellious statement in yeah, right? In today's world.
M
Yeah.
M
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
M
Yeah. Yeah, it is. Yeah. Yeah.
Yasmine
Yeah, because I mean I think the the whole idea of the price making the art look like almost grandiose. Like it's it's supposed to be sexier and it's supposed to be too good for you. You know, I don't know if you're you know what I mean? Like
M
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, there's all this psychology and pricing things, right? Like, and when you look at the international art market, whenever something sells at a ridiculous, insane price, this is like the news about art that reaches, like, mainstream media. It's like, ooh, Picasso sold for, like, this and that amount of millions, you know? And, yeah, it's just so interesting. And...
Yasmine
Yeah.
M
People approach art also with this very materialistic way of thinking. When I take my stuff to art fairs stuff, people always ask me how much time did it take to make that? That's their main question. Which is again in a production mode thinking. If it took a lot of time, it has more value. Where again I'm back to the 5 year old me putting intuitive dots on a piece of paper and creating something really magical.
Yasmine
Yeah.
Yasmine
Mm-hmm.
M
And it didn't take me a long time. But that doesn't mean it doesn't have value. that's just another bit. That's like typical our production line thinking that we just all forced under.
Yasmine
Mm-hmm.
Yasmine
Yeah. That's so cool. I never realized that. Because you know, like a few days ago I had somebody ask me the ex that exact question. How how long did it take you? And they always do. Like people ask me that all the time. But I always thought it it was because, you know, my work is super detailed and really looks like a ton of work, which it is. And that's a personal thing. It's my vibe, you know, it doesn't make it better.
M
Mm-hmm.
M
Mm-hmm.
M
Yeah.
Yasmine
at all, like far from it. Actually, you know, it it can in and of itself be a pitfall to just spend too much time, you know what I mean? Like that whole
M
Mm-hmm. Yes, I do. I've definitely been there too. Yeah
Yasmine
Yeah, so so but it's just a per personal thing. It's just a personal style. But I thought that was the reason why people were asking that, but now you're telling me that. I'm like, of course.
M
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
M
Yeah, I think, I mean, that's my theory of that's the underlying motive, because I've had that question so many times, but I also used to make way more detailed work. And maybe I got that question more. So maybe it is also I can't judge people fully. I take it back a little bit.
Yasmine
Yeah.
Yasmine
But yeah, but at the same time I have to say that I I never really understood that question. I I I mean I I mean it's it it's like what? Are you asking that because you're considering doing the same thing and you're wondering if you have time for it? Like
M
huh, yeah.
M
Yeah, maybe it's because people want to be impressed, They want you to say that it took you 80 hours and then they're like, wow, you really put in 80 hours of work. I don't know. People also ask me with my books, my graphic novels, how long did it take, right? And that's a different beast because that takes like years, like maybe three years, the whole project's taking like a decade. So yeah, but I don't know if people are impressed by that, but they...
Yasmine
Yeah.
Yasmine
Mm-hmm.
Yasmine
Course.
For sure.
M
They like it somehow, you I think it's maybe it's also a way of making a myth about something, you know, like, yeah, yeah.
Yasmine
Yeah.
Yasmine
Mm-hmm. Don't you think that it can be a problem? It's just a small question. I mean, I I would like to to to to go towards the whole question of art and spirituality in a minute. But I just I'm just curious. Does that thing of like I I grew up making art? I started making art when I was about two years old, according to the family story. because I don't remember, but
M
Mm-hmm.
M
Yeah. Yeah.
M
Mmm. Mmm.
Yasmine
That's what I was told. but but and then I never stopped. And because of that I don't know what it is not to be that person and I don't know what it is to approach art as an quote unquote outsider.
M
Yeah.
M
Mm-hmm.
Yasmine
And I sometimes I feel like that's made me pretty blind to people's motives or like it's it's been very hard for me to really put myself in in somebody else's shoes if they don't have themselves an art practice and they're approaching it like from the outside in. I wonder if you you feel that way too.
M
Mmm.
Mm.
M
Well, I have been away from it. So I think like I had years because I well then I'm going to get into it a little bit to just explain that. I studied art history. I have a master's degree in art history. And during those years, I became like extremely blocked. I used to like dabble around and I had exhibitions and I like everybody knew me as the girl who painted, maybe not like an artist, but like,
If I met someone from my old school or something, they would always ask, are you still painting? You know, that would be like part of my identity, but that disappeared during those years in university. Also, like you say, art school will destroy you. Art history will definitely also destroy you. Like, because I was looking at all the great masters and thinking like, well, I might as well quit because I'm never going to reach these levels. I'm never going to be in these history books. I'm never going to, you know, all of that. So.
And also like I had some rejection things from art school, which I never got into. Kind of thank God now that I've heard so many stories and I've seen so many things what happening to people in these institutions. I'm like, thank God they didn't touch my innocence in a way, you know, but. So for many years I wasn't an artist. I definitely didn't identify as one at all. And then I don't know, I got well back into it in a way of
in a backwards way because I studied art history, couldn't get a job for like three years. I was desperate. was like, I need another career. I need something different. And in Denmark, because I already had spent like all my clips on a higher education, I could only go down lower. So I took an education as a graphic designer and started doing graphics and loved it, you because I think my brain loves to problem solve visually.
I would go home from work and think about like, how am going to fix this fly or how can I make this? Like I was really like my hyper focus was on and then I started working for clients, like doing illustrations. And then I started getting very frustrated with my clients wanting to force my hand all the time. And I feel like I know better, I know better. And the artist in me was coming out like more and more, you know, like from the depths of where I put it. So, and finally I broke free of most of
M
my illustration work too, you know, and just do what I want, like, finally. So that's a long answer to that.
Yasmine
Yeah, no, that's great. That's that's great. So so yeah. Interesting. I also studied history of art, but it didn't have the same effect on me for some reason. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean it was it was its own form of miserable, but not not not in that way.
M
Yeah.
M
Okay, good, good for you.
M
Not that. No, but mean there were also other factors. I won't blame art history alone. Like my dad was an artist and he died like very tragically. And I think in my mind I really also connected being an artist with being very out of control, volatile, an alcoholic and all of these things. Like yeah, in my mind it just became like the same. Like if you choose that path,
Yasmine
Mm-hmm.
M
you're going to end up dead, basically. And so that took a lot of unblocking for me, too. Like the fear of this life, because it's also like now that I'm a full time artist, it's an extremely free life. You you have to be able to, I think, have some structure and not just like sit and day drink at a bar. I could do that, you know, for periods of time. But I've still called so much to work that that I work, you know, but I think
Yasmine
M
the level of freedom requires some kind of maturity as well, you Yeah.
Yasmine
Totally. Yeah, yeah. And I I understand that you you you I'm not sure if if if I'm right here, but that you you did the process of the artist's way, the Julia Cameron book. Yeah, it's very cool. Yeah, yeah.
M
Yeah, I did it. I did it many times. Yeah, it's It totally changed my life like Yeah, like props That book is amazing. She's amazing. I did a seminar with her in London a couple of years ago Yeah, yeah Yeah
Yasmine
man. I've been I've been looking for like I've I've I've done it too, but I'd like to do it again. But I'd like to do it again with other people now, so
M
Yeah.
Maybe we can join together, I'll be down. Amazing! Yeah! Yeah.
Yasmine
me too. Awesome. That's great. but yeah, but you know, in that in that book she talks about the whole question of like those those beliefs in society about, you know, being an artist and basically being fucked up. Yeah. So I I yeah, definitely recognize that. that like that
M
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes.
M
Yeah, I definitely internalized that too and also from seeing it like directly, you know in front of my eyes like What she's talking about. I saw that happening But I don't think it was because my dad was an artist of mob just because he was a drunk honestly Like it didn't really it was the other way around like Yeah
Yasmine
Yeah, that's it.
Yasmine
Yeah, it's so interesting how that trauma actually had a lot more f like that belief was a lot bigger for you. For me it wasn't so deep that one. For me it was more like you're gonna be broke.
M
yeah, me too. Yeah, living in the streets have been like a big... Yeah.
Yasmine
yeah. Yeah, same, same. Like like a just a kind of scarecrow image, you know, in my in my mind all the time. But yeah, but you had like first first hand experience with actual, like yeah. I mean, I I I I can understand how that belief, you know, the stuff of being messed up. Like for me, that was less the case, but it's in culture. You can feel it in culture. But so then my question now is.
M
Yeah, yeah, I'm so good.
M
It is, it is exactly.
Yasmine
Okay, the this is a broad question. So I'm I'm I can make it more precise, but let's start with the broad and see how we do. how would you to you what's what's what's a way that you could say your spirituality and your art practice relate? How do they how do they come together for you? Are they the same thing? Are they not the same thing? How do they articulate?
M
Yeah.
M
Mm.
M
Well, I think in the way of channeling, because I feel like I channel a lot from spirit or, yeah, just call it spirit. And I learned during the years to open myself to that connection and to really just receive, be a channel. And I do that all the time. And I'm very much in co-creation with spirit all the time.
sorry, that's my dog. Let me just give him a second to you. Okay, Mickey. He's joking Yeah, it's so cute. my god Yeah, I mean I I was in 12 step also like Julie Cameron for a while and
Yasmine
Hey Mickey
M
During that time I did a residency in Italy and in that, I mean, I've been coming back to spirituality. was never something I grew up with. It was never allowed in my household. My parents were actually very anti-religion and spirituality wasn't even mentioned as an option or a theme. you know, it's just like, we don't believe in anything in this house. So for me, it's been like a coming back and also removing a lot of shame around that because they used to always be like...
a religious opium for the people and it's a way of escaping and it's a way of not dealing with the actual problems in front of you and all of this like kind of also bad programming about that. So when I was in 12 step, of course, a lot of that is about surrendering to a higher power and I really was asking to do God's work a lot in Italy, like on my knees, walking around and just praying.
for that, whatever that meant, you know, because I didn't know what that exactly would look like or would mean. And then the trilogy of graphic novels that I'm working on came through. And I'm sure that it came through because I presented myself as an available workforce for Spirit. And I was like, I'm willing to take on this work for you, whatever it may be. And so whatever I do is always like in service of that.
Also like the very playful things and the silly things and the acting like a child at 45 things and all of that is in service, you know So yeah
Yasmine
Mm, yeah, I hear you totally. yeah, it can relate to the to the the spirituality not really being an option, growing up in a super hardcore like rationalistic scientist materialists thing where yeah, yeah, yeah. My my parents were agnostic and respectful, but generally the vibe was like you can't say the word God, for instance, like are you crazy? Like you maybe you need medication. And that was not even my it was more like where I grew up, like the school I went to, et cetera. My parents were a little bit more open, but they were more like, look, we don't know, so you don't ask questions you can't answer.
M
Yeah. Wow.
M
We asked.
M
And, you
Yasmine
And so, yeah, so you know, anyway, but so if I understand well, in a certain way, you know, the divine spirit, higher power, whatever you call it, is like a set it's not it's not art, but it is the source of art, and you present yourself as a channel, right? Okay, and then but then
M
Yeah.
M
Yeah. Yeah.
Yasmine
How would you say what would you say that the place of artists are in society? Because you could contend in a way that everybody can be a channel for higher power without art. Like you can, I don't know, maybe you're a street sweeper, to just to give the the very like cliche, you know, super cliche example. But maybe maybe you're a street sweeper and you could do it in a way that is gorgeous and artful and
M
Yeah. Definitely. Yeah.
M
Yeah.
Yasmine
is you know channeling higher power in its desire to care for you know this the the the cities in which people live that kind of stuff so what what would you say makes like artists different in that way as channels
M
Definitely.
M
I don't know that we are. Like what you're saying is like the monks building the sand and then whispering it away again like or everything can be a sin practice, right? Like sweeping the floor and...
Yasmine
Mm-hmm.
M
I don't know, we just like, guess our thing produces a result or some kind of physical object, I guess. But I don't know that we are different actually. It's just a matter of, I think spirit also uses us where we have the skill set. Because of course I came through something, so spirit can use me specifically for things that I also have a worldly understanding of. If I've seen
Yasmine
Mm-hmm.
M
what it is to be a blocked artist from all angles because I was so blocked myself they can use me for exactly that so I think it's like a co-creation with spirit and humanity so to speak you know so whatever spirit of course channels through me also gets washed through my personal experiences and comes out probably twisted and messed up I guess like yeah
Yasmine
Yeah, but you try to try to get out of the way as much as possible, right?
M
I mean, yeah, yeah, I... both yes and no, you know?
Yasmine
I mean, I don't mean I don't mean, yeah, it's an interesting question. It's like it's not even getting out of the way as your true self, you could say. But at least you have your have everything that is against that channeling be out of the way for now and just be on the side so that's because I mean, indeed, like if you're a channel, the channel is you. There's a reason for it, and it has to express in a very specific way, which is the one that you can give. Like, yeah, yeah, I get it. But like the, you know.
M
Mm-hmm.
M
Yeah.
Yasmine
Whatever is is not you, 'cause we have so much of that inside of us that is not us, you know. I guess that's what you're by asking to do God's will, that's what you're trying to get out of the way, right? Mm-hmm.
M
Yeah. huh. Yeah.
M
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. And I think that's also what's giving me the strength to write, I mean, all these books that I have written and drawing all those pages and stuff. I don't know, I have put like notes in my in my room and my studio saying all glory to God. It's also a way of keeping my ego out of it and being like, whatever I do, I don't really have to take.
the glory for it because I didn't really do it. So it's a way of also channeling a work ethic and power to do all of that, what I need to do. And I couldn't do it alone. I I know that I have.
that with me, separating it, yeah, mean, everything that's smarter than me is that, you know? I guess all of that structure that I can see. then, especially when I'm writing, it's such a magical experience because I'll see something on a sign or a little note or online or whatever, and it's just like the exact missing puzzle piece. And I'm like, okay, well, Spirit put it there for me to pick it up and see it, and I'm doing it. And that's the interaction, I think.
Yasmine
Mm-hmm.
M
That's how I think about it. But I mean, I don't know.
Yasmine
Totally.
No, absolutely. I mean you have to keep an open mind and and like that's so important actually. If you if if if there's that idea that I channel something, I have to make that very clear that the real thing is that I don't know.
M
Yeah.
M
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And letting it come and also trusting. think like when I'm when I'm thinking about myself painting is very much about like breathing and trusting that the line I'm going to make is the line that needs to be there. like when I started painting murals outside, I was coming from very detailed, tiny little dot work drawings. And I went outside, my friends started painting huge murals in the street. And one of the things that I chose is like
I don't want to have a sketch, I don't want to have a plan, so I just stood in front of the wall with a brush in my hand. And then I felt that my hand was being moved, you know? And that, I loved that feeling so much because it's just so fun and so free and there's no real risk, there's nothing you can fuck up. And it's very a body experience too, you know, like a big movement with your arms and your shoulders and...
And I think that definitely helped me to channel too because I just like closed my eyes and some image popped into my head and I just made it, you Yeah.
Yasmine
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. I I work a lot with that vision stuff. Like it's always been like that. I just I have an image in in my head and I'm like, wow, that would be cool. But yeah, there's something you said that just won wants to make me just go back a little bit. You were talking about, you know, keeping your ego out of the way and
M
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
M
Isn't that?
Yasmine
Doing that stuff, and and that that phrase of for the glor the glory of God reminded me of, you know Bach, the the the composer? Yeah, he actually signed his compositions with SDG and not his name, but SDG Solid Deo Gloria.
M
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
M
Mmm. Wow.
Yasmine
And I've been I've been wanting to be anonymous and to make like to have, you know, like a separate website and to move the operations. I've been alwa I always wanted to be anonymous because it's no I n I hate signing my work. I do it but actually I don't even do it on the work itself. I do it in the back, and even that is just I do it because people ask for it. I
M
Mm.
M
you
Yasmine
Hate that stuff. Because ideally, this has not much to do with me. I mean, it does totally, but who cares? Is the thing. Like, if if it was about me, I'd show myself, not the work. And and it's, and I'm not saying that from a place of shame or of, I'm not. You know, no, I'm I'm great. I mean, I can show myself. I'm fine. Like, it's I'm interesting. Every human being is interesting, but.
M
it's certainly, yeah.
M
Yeah. Yeah.
M
and one.
Yasmine
I just, you know, I think that's something that I've been considering a lot is to actually be totally anonymous and just and I actually signed my work SDG once, some paintings, and when they sold, the gallery owner called me and was like, What's SDG? The client wants to know. And I sent him, I was so nasty. I said I sent him a Wikipedia page with a list of acronyms.
M
Yeah.
M
Mm-hmm.
M
Yeah.
Yasmine
that that it could be and I was like well you choose.
M
But they didn't force you to sign your actual name?
Yasmine
He didn't force me in the end, but he was pissed off and never and never worked with me again. Jeep poopsy. yeah. But yeah, so that idea I I don't know how you feel about the idea of just like actually being really fully anonymous when you make work, like how how joyful and liberating it feels to me. Do you do you can you relate or do you
M
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, well, it was probably for the best. mean, yeah, yeah.
M
I haven't really thought about it. I can imagine it being a very interesting space to move in. I think about lot of graffiti and street artists. We have Bakesy and also in Denmark we have a guy. He's been anonymous for years and now he's doing museum shows and stuff. it's like... I mean... But I think definitely you can do some great things.
in that space. haven't, like, I use myself very, much in my work and,
Yasmine
Mm.
M
So couldn't really imagine it, I think it would be interesting to explore for sure.
Yasmine
Mm.
Yasmine
Yeah, yeah, for me it's it's it's like it's highly attractive. Really, it's like I'm yeah, it's been on my mind for years and years. But I was wondering, what's like what's to you, what's the importance if any, for you specifically of having it like spiritually for you.
M
Yeah.
M
It's just.
Yasmine
What's the effect of having an artistic practice? How do you feel you would be if you didn't have one? And like yeah, like spiritually speaking.
M
Well, mean... Well, it's so connected. I can't imagine. I would die. If I couldn't do art, I would absolutely just collapse. think it's saving my life on the daily. And it's all I do, basically. It's all I do. Can you hear me being rattled? No, I can't.
Yasmine
yeah.
M
Yeah, even if I go to the summer house for two days I'm already like crawling on the walls and just like I need to I need to outlet constantly you know and I think but I did art before I found spirituality it was just like way way different and way more sort of controlled and scared and and not as fun
Yasmine
Mm.
M
And like maybe with less purpose, I don't want to put myself, my passive down in a way, but everything about it was different, you know, like.
Yasmine
Was it have you found that because I was gonna ask you about the pitfalls of being an artist spiritually and one of the the pitfalls that I can find is that that that exact thing of making it about me and about how worthy I am or about how you know how gifted I am or or or or or comparing and and yeah, so yeah, I'm wondering about that.
M
Yeah.
M
Yeah.
M
Oh yeah, yeah.
M
Yeah, I think for me, being spiritual, I also have a very big connection to shadow parts and shadow sides and being bad and being human and faulty and corrupted and having bad thoughts and stuff. So I never try to be like, I'm all spiritual and great. I have an ego. It's big.
And you know, I also have a need to be seen. I acknowledge that in me that one of things I find really fun is also dressing up and like going outside and having people stare at me for some reason. I don't know why I have this in me. But it's OK. You know, I try to be like, OK, you have this side. Sometimes I think nasty bad thoughts and I'm trying to be like, OK, well, this is you came from the jungle, girl. It's OK. Like you you were still a monkey at some point. And
Yasmine
Mm-hmm.
Yasmine
Yeah.
M
And you know, like, so I think being an artist, also like feeds me, you know, and I think that I also need, like, I've been thinking a lot about like outside recognition and like when you get to the point where you start getting all the stuff and you know, you're winning awards, you're getting grants and all of that.
Yasmine
Mm-hmm.
M
then you're starting to realize, well, there's nothing on any of these shelves that I've been trying to get all this stuff. And when I get it, it feels empty or it's not really... But I still feel like we're doing stuff and not just in the dark. mean, if I painted a painting that no one ever saw, would it matter that type of thought experiment? And I think...
I do want to be seen. I am okay with that. I'm okay with my ego parts and stuff. I think I have a pretty clear view of how my personality is structured.
Yeah, I mean, there are pitfalls. You have to remain humble also, I think. But I don't know, like... It's a kind of a game and interaction that as well, you know, because if everything was just too easy, it would also be boring, I guess, so...
Yasmine
Yeah, I like I l I love that. And and yeah, for what I understand about the twelve step way of life and process, it keeps you very close to your shadow. Like you're you have to look at your shit like ideally daily if I understand well. and and that's that's a huge deal. I I I have a big, you know, like I'm on my
M
Yeah.
M
M
M
Yeah.
Yasmine
How do you say that? You know, it's it's one of my big things, you know, that if unless we f we face our shadow and we own that and we don't try to be quote unquote good, you know, or like you know like we are actually actively harming people around us when we don't, you know, take ownership of that and
M
Yeah.
M
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Yasmine
And when I say ownership, what I what I think I love is just that attitude of not considering that's such a bad thing. It's not in a way that, my God, I have shadow elements and so I'm a terrible person. It's just like, okay, I suck sometimes and I mess up, you know. And how incredibly important and balanced it it can like how how important it is and how balanced a human being. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
M
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
M
Yeah. Exactly. And I feel that very much also with emotions, like the other day I was feeling lonely and I'm just trying to accept that in me and be like, okay, well, you're feeling lonely, baby. It's a part of human experience. Like, you're not gonna escape that ever. You might as well just like lean more into it, you know? And yeah, I think it's beautiful to accept the parts.
Yasmine
Mm.
M
Also the ugly parts.
Yasmine
Yeah, and my sense is that you know what? I mean in this world I feel like if you're not feeling lonely, you're just lying to yourself. Like w we need connection so badly, and this is a world that really does not like help us connect in a way that is I mean, most of us have huge trauma that get in the way of connection. the way our society is structured really doesn't make for that. And
M
Mm-hmm, yeah. Yeah, maybe, yeah.
M
Yeah.
Yasmine
Like I I ha I'm having to be completely re educated in order to be capable of connecting with people in a way that is sane and and loving and like I had to completely like change so much about me for that. And that's not like I don't I come from a you know like you could say in a way if the the fish is sick, maybe the it's not that the fish is sick, it's that the tank is dirty.
M
huh.
M
Yeah.
M
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I mean, I can only agree. I can only agree that the times we live in now are so hardcore and just getting worse and worse, like with AI and with dating apps and the kids in school. And like, I just heard a survey here, like how girls are so much more depressed than boys. And it's just, you know, it's so massive. It's so massive. And the re-education, I very much relate to that. I mean, I did all of the...
Yasmine
Mm-hmm.
M
the deep diving and digging in my subconscious to reprogram myself out of a lot of stuff, know, like also just romantic love, which I just think is like complete bullshit basically. So yeah.
Yasmine
Mmm, I'd be super interested in having a conversation about the whole question of romantic love, men, women, and stuff. And I yeah, I understand that that's one of your big topics and it is a huge yes. Absolutely. I would love that. Yeah. Okay.
M
Yes. Yeah.
M
Maybe we can do one for my podcast. can swap it. Awesome. Awesome. Let's do it. Yay.
Yasmine
And then what would you think that for somebody like you? Because I can I can really relate to the stuff of not making art being really going against my nature and being really, really unhealthy for somebody like me. At least I mean those are my words. like it it yeah, it's it's it's a little bit the same as if I didn't have any touch in my life, you know, like body git touch or
M
Yeah.
M
Hmm, yeah. Yeah.
Yasmine
You know, is that or if I was disconnected from my sleep and I almost never slept and slept only on sleeping pills. To me, it's kind of the same. Like the result is like I I am a lot less alive. I've become I've become very brittle. Yeah, it's just I lose vitality in a in a crazy way when I don't engage in some form of practice. And so to me, in a way, it is part of my spiritual practice that I have to do that in the same way that.
M
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
M
Yeah.
Yasmine
I abstain from certain things. There are, you know, yeah, certain practices that I have, also looking at shadow, etc. So yeah, would you agree with that? That in a way you could say that it's part of basic the self-care that is necessary in order that we are responsible for in order to show up in the world in a way that is actually loving and positive.
M
Mm-hmm.
M
one.
M
Mm-hmm.
M
Definitely, definitely. Yeah, because yeah, I mean I would turn into a rancid bitch if I didn't have my art practice I wouldn't like so yeah, I'm doing everybody a favor sitting doing some ceramics
Yasmine
A ranc a rancid bitch. I love it. That is it.
M
That's it, don't take this from me. It's like I'm gonna turn into a crazy beast. yeah, yeah. And also, of course, there's something very meditative about sitting and actually doing the work. And for me, I definitely am neurodivergent. I don't know exactly how, but it's taking me to that place of pure presence and beingness and just dipping the...
Yasmine
Mm.
M
the brush and the ink and putting it on a surface and that like very it's very real it's very not a screen it's like the the materia or something I don't know exactly the word I'm looking for but
Yasmine
matter, like the ac yeah.
M
Yeah, the matter, yeah, and that connects me, you know, and that's so simple, so basic, but that's like, it's so basic to go outside and touch the ground, but it will make you feel so much better when you do it. So it's like, it's so simple things, I think that regulators and makers like feel better. And, and that's also a thing like, we deserve to feel good, you know, like I think there's a lot of shame also around like taking the time and the
the indulgence in just sitting and doing that. I mean, it's not anymore because it's my very serious job, right? But when you're starting out, think like a lot of people struggle to take the time to do that because it feels like a self-indulgent thing to do. And it's really not because you're doing everybody a favor, I think so.
Yasmine
Yeah, that's that that thing of of stopping to see me and my good as opposite, as the opposite of other people's good. And like if I feel happy, it's just better for everyone. Like for me, that was a big time when I started, you know, realizing, you know, my my footprint on the world and watching that, watching how do I affect the world around me.
M
No.
M
Yeah. Yeah.
Yasmine
The whole question of like self-care is absolutely central to this because it's not that if I care for me, I don't care for you, is that by caring for me I'm actually much more able to care for you because otherwise I have nothing to give, right?
M
Mm-hmm.
M
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yasmine
Yeah. And and yeah, the the the stuff of like neurodivergence. I feel like w we don't have a fair chance in this world, you know, we all I mean a lot of people are neurodivergents, so much so that I'm like, is it even divergence at this point?
M
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, is it the guys who are not are the divergent ones at this point? But maybe it's also the circles you move in because I heard that we flock together. So was like, yeah.
Yasmine
Yeah.
Yasmine
yeah, that's that thank you. That's possible that we're in an echo chamber.
M
All the other ones are sitting in an office and you don't see them. Maybe.
Yasmine
I don't know. But yeah, for sure. Like that stuff of just chilling in the hyper focus. Like it's such a soft bubble for me. Like such a good, nice, cozy bubble of just, you know, chilling in the hyper focus.
M
Yeah.
M
Yeah, no, I love it. I love my hyper focus abilities and I use it also when I skate and so I skate the streets and I use my hyper focus and then that's also very connected to my body, which is super great also because I do a lot of like brain work and spiritual things and stuff and so connecting it down to the 3D experience is like, yeah, it's just it's just the next level joy and for me it's has been and I think a big word for me is joy.
And I think spirit wants us to be joyful. So it's again, I'm just basically doing the job of God because I am happy. Like, you know, that's what it is. So, yeah. Yeah.
Yasmine
Hmm, mmm, yeah, I love it. I absolutely love it. And love the idea of joy. And like to me, my experience of joy was that how different it is from happiness. And that it's possible to be in joy even in the worst of griefs.
M
Mm-hmm.
M
Mmm, I don't know.
M
Yeah.
Yasmine
There is, you know, there is a joyful thing that I feel alive and I see beauty. I see the beauty of what's going on, even though I'm I can be in pain. I can be you know, like to me that's what I love. That's how I see joy. I I don't know if you can relate to that or
M
Yeah, no, definitely, definitely. also like, yeah, finding it in the in the hard moments, you know, and but that's also part of this like radical acceptance. And also, think making a contract for me out that I wanted to feel everything I've definitely also said to spirit, like I want to feel everything, give it all to me. So that's very brave and also maybe stupid.
Yasmine
Mm.
Yasmine
Yes, prayers are the most stupid prayers.
M
I guess so.
Yeah, then be like, okay, you want to feel it all? Here you go.
Yasmine
Yeah, I had the same. I was like, please teach me how to love because I realized I wasn't able to I didn't know how to love and I was like, come on, teach me, because I have no idea. And guess what? Like the world like crashed on my face after I said that.
M
No.
M
Wow, that's amazing. I love the alchemy. I love the way that you can interact with this and shape your life, you know, like it's completely magical. Yeah.
Yasmine
That's the f that's the magic. That's the pure magic. Is like when I realize that like the way I say it is reality talks back. It talks back to me. My God, if I speak to reality, it will talk back to me? What the fuck is this? Like how cruel is this?
M
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
M
Yeah.
Yeah, no, it's so crazy and you can bend your own world. I mean, the stuff that I'm doing now is something that I never would have imagined like 10 years ago, you know, yeah. And when it does and when you start jumping, the path starts. That's also Julia Cameron thing. Well, when you leap, the net will appear and it does like that show me again and again, like every time I take the chance and I take the step forward and I'm just going to trust in spirit and trust that this is my path.
Yasmine
Yes.
Yeah, it takes you places, huh?
M
Well, turns out it is. Even the most crazy things that I can come up with can become a reality pretty fast. So I mean, that's so much fun. And for me, that's like the fun of being alive right now. mean, skating and that. You're just manifesting.
Yasmine
Mm-hmm. Yeah, you're talking pure magic here. And and I'm I'm I'm smiling like bigly, as one of our favorite politicians likes to say. I'm smiling bigly, listening to you. Hey, I I we we don't have much time left, and I would like to end on something that that is dear to me, like as a question is I would like to know what
M
you
Yasmine
What excites you right now? What's exciting? What's your what are your the the projects that are exciting to you or the ideas or the perspectives? Like, you know, what's up with that?
M
Well, that's hard because you catching me in a moment of not being that excited. I mean, yeah. Yeah.
Yasmine
That's interesting too though. We can go there. We can definitely go there. That's a big part of it. So would you would you like to go there? Like just go wherever whatever's alive right now. I would love to to hear that.
M
Yeah, definitely. So I'm working, like I mentioned, on a trilogy of graphic novels and it's like 1,100 pages of drawings. And I did two of the books. I'm wrapping up the third. So I'm at this point where this project has been so big, the script is still not done, I have a deadline. I have to kind of like coerce myself into reading the script at this point. I'm like...
I'll get you a cake, I'll get you this nice coffee, what if we sit in bed and look at it and I light a candle and stuff, really pamper myself. Because it's hard work, it's really hard and I really want it to be good and at the same time I want to let go and just be done. So I'm struggling with my, well I think all artists have this impatience and I definitely, I'm like a racehorse, I'm like...
Can we get done so I can move on to the fucking next? But I'm forced right now to not, to stay and to finish it and to... Part of writing is like rewriting, right? And revisiting and looking at it again and again and again and so... I was just thinking to myself today like when I'm done with this, I'm gonna get excited. I'm gonna start painting. I'm gonna do something. But at this moment, I'm just in the trenches of hard work basically strapped my ego in and trying to do this.
Yasmine
Mm.
M
without praise and anything. So yeah, like.
Yasmine
Yeah. yeah, I r I very much recognize that place. And so it's a whole question of like how do you you know, it reminds me of that saying. I don't know if you ever read that book, very a very masculine book, but I really love it. The War of Art.
M
Mm-hmm, yeah.
M
Mmm, yeah.
M
I've heard about it. I haven't read it yet, but I will.
Yasmine
yeah, I can't remember the author's name, but he's he's he's a he's a fun one. And and and I would really recommend it for a very you know, like if Julia Cameron is the very feminine side of things, very spiritual, very open, it's all about joy. And it's actually a friend of mine who who said that to me. He was like, yeah, Julia Cameron is the feminine and that dude, the war of art guy, that's the masculine approach, you know?
M
Mmm.
M
Interesting, interesting.
Yasmine
Which is all about war and you know, you show up and you do the work and and it's actually he's not dumb about it. He's really good. He's really great. Like I would not recommend it if it wasn't if it was just
M
Yeah. Yeah.
No, I can... You're not the first person to recommend it to me, so I'm like, I'm taking note, notice always when people recommend me books, especially when it's happening again. Yeah.
Yasmine
And and it actually it might be the right moment for you to to to to read it. But I remember that there's a quote in that book. he was talking to a guy who who who trains horses for racing. And that guy was saying, I want my I I can't you know, like, I'm paraphrasing obviously, but something like, I want my horses to love the track.
M
Mm-hmm.
Yasmine
I don't want to have them, you know, like and so basically what the guy did is that he would let his horses run, but he would always stop before they started getting tired. So that the next day they were excited to go back. And so for me that was a very Ooh, I'm having an echo. yeah, I think it should be fine.
M
Yeah.
M
Hi. Yeah.
Yasmine
Yeah, and I can hopefully remove it in post production. But yeah, so for me that was a that that whole question of like not driving myself to exhaustion, but instead just working short, like four hours for me, considering the work I do, like the what I make, is really not much. I I used to do like twelve hours in a row or something.
M
Mm-hmm.
M
Yeah.
Yasmine
And and and but just keeping it four hours that are like really intense and really present and then stopping and taking a huge break and hanging out and just enjoying and connecting to inspiration and all that really, really helped me. And I hear that you're you're having to come up with like similar strategies or
M
Yeah. Yeah.
M
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. And I could do better. I could take more like quote unquote artists dates and like pour in my well, I used to have this image in my head of like a sponge. And once the sponge is super dry and you squeeze all the juice out of that sponge, you have to go water it before you can squeeze it again. And it's the same kind of idea, right?
Yasmine
Mm-hmm.
Yasmine
Totally.
M
Yeah, that you have to pamper your inner artists and take them fun places. I'm doing some of that with skating. Like I just put like sequence on my skates with a glue gun, like I'm five years old or seven or something. Yeah, it's super nice. It makes me happy. And like it's not a serious art project. And then I have the script and the trilogy and all that seriousness. But I'm also I've been consistently trying to make it fun. And I've insisted that it needs to be fun for me because
Yasmine
Nice.
M
I also just don't want to have the legacy of being like, I drew all this and I hated every second of it. Like a lot of cartoonists really do have that attitude that they just hate the work. And I just never wanted to push myself that far, know, that I pushed myself into resenting the work and myself. Yeah.
Yasmine
That's that's okay, that's a that's a fascinating one. We almost out of time, but I'm just thinking okay, because this is thank you. This is this is a thing for me. It's it's part of the work I I I am in absolute joy with it.
M
It's okay, Yeah, don't rush it. Yeah.
Yasmine
And part of the work when I'm really actually trying to do something like, you know, to make something quote unquote serious in the sense that I'm really like, okay, I'm taking this on and you know, I'm not just like dabbling and having fun. And when I say just, I don't mean that in a like that is sacred, sacred stuff too, you know. But I mean that I'm I'm not doing that. I'm really in the thing of no, I am trying to produce and I'm working for a result here.
M
Mm-hmm.
M
Yeah, of course. Yeah.
M
Mm-hmm.
Yasmine
That I have envisioned and I want the result. And the process is is gonna be important, but I'm I'm not just in the joy of the process. I'm really, really looking at the the result. And I, you know, right? Like those are very different modes in a way, and they need to be both present somehow. But like for me, it's it's I I come from a thing of being obsessed with the result.
M
Yeah.
M
when I.
Yasmine
And really had to learn to let go and hang out in the process more. And I think that's quite common in a lot of artists who actually, you know, keep making art. It's at one point they realize that just being obsessed with the result is not working. But I'm wondering, I've heard a lot of artists that I actually really
M
Yeah. Yeah.
M
Yeah.
Yasmine
admired in the good sense of the the word, like in a good sense of the word, like that I really was like, wow, those people make beautiful things or important things or whatever. They could be writers, they could be musicians, it could be anything. Saying that they they were so devoted to the work, but that they
M
Uh-huh.
M
Yeah.
Yasmine
They really hated it while they were working on it. It was so hard and painful. And some some of my work I can relate to that. Some of it is a lot more pleasant. But I've been wondering, like I I know that for me, I I had one my mentor that was more like what you described. She was like, if it's not for fun, I'm not interested, I'm not doing it. If I can't have fun as I'm doing it, then I am not doing that to myself.
M
Mm-hmm.
M
No.
Yasmine
And I've been really questioning that, being like, okay, is that a thing? And I think I'm I just, you know, I have an addict's mind. And, you know, I'm also a recovering addict. And I I tend to go very black and white. You know, it's like, it's either this or that, you know. Yeah. And and so that question of like, am I supposed to have joy at all times or not? Like, that's
M
Yeah, yeah, yeah, same, yeah.
M
Yeah.
Yasmine
Yeah, it's been a question, like, is it okay for me sometimes to work without joy, but to have joy in in between? And I know that the result is something that in a s in a place of deep joy from a place of deep joy and inspiration, I envision that and then it sucks for a long time, but then I get like you know, I've tried I was just trying to serve that vision. Yeah, I'm wondering. Do you have any thought on that?
M
Yeah.
M
Yeah, I think it's about finding the joy in the trenches. Basically just being like... you know, for me, like I said, when I have to look at the script again, I'm scared. It might be shitty. It's usually actually shitty until it's done. But then I know how the payoff is. When I put three years of my life into a book...
It touches people in ways that like a piece of ceramic art that I made in a couple of hours could never ever ever do, you know, like So I know that when I apply myself and when I go over it again It's a different quality but I had this discussion with my editor a lot because I I was I would insist like the first line is the right line and Whatever came through me was right and you should not be editing and changing this and this is God's words You know, like basically
And he was just like, well, no, we're going to change.
And I also was like, don't want my name on the front page. And he's like, well, that's how we do it in Denmark. And I'm like, okay, okay. So I was like a spiritual warrior, but then not that much. Also a pushover.
M
Yeah, it's like...
So yeah, yeah, but then I also noticed something in me is that I actually really like a challenge and I like hard work. So that's why I'm saying like finding the joy in the trenches because when I'm sitting there and wrecking my brain and I can't come up with the plot twist or this exactly character development or whatever it is, this hard thing, I like it. I like being challenged and I like using like all parts of my brain and you know, like really having to like...
Yasmine
That's cool.
M
work for it as well because a lot of things come really easily to me especially after so many years so yeah I mean I think it's okay not to be in total joy all time it's like a little impossible I guess you know
Yasmine
Yeah. Yeah yeah. And yeah, it's funny, yeah. I think the fact that art art making is there's always it's always possible to find a cool challenge. For me, it's one of the reasons why I never like I was always in love with it, is because I was like, I'm never bored. There's always something challenging for me to do. The the level of challenge is so exciting.
M
Yeah.
M
Mmm.
M
Yeah.
M
Yeah.
Yasmine
And and if there's no challenge anymore, well, I can move on. Like I moved on to painting because I was not challenged by drawing anymore. At at the place where I was where I felt like I was like a printer, you know, it just came out of me. And I was like, this is boring, you know. But then you can take on another type of challenge, like in the way you, you know, your composition or in in other things. Like it's it's just fun. You can just pick your challenge and it's like an eternal, you know, game.
M
Awesome.
M
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
M
Yeah.
M
Yeah.
Yasmine
An infinite game, yeah, I I just love that. But when it comes to just being in the trenches and finding the joy in the trenches, I was thinking how many times humor has saved my ass. Just being able to laugh about it with someone, you know. It that really, really helps. And then I'm wondering, like, do you have other ways to to find joy in the trenches?
M
Mm-hmm.
M
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely. Yeah.
M
Yes, think like also like putting fun stuff for me to do there like for instance when I'm drawing the books I make sure that the drawings are something that I want to draw so I like like drawing bubbles and shiny things and digs and cats and Things that like a running and typography and stuff. So I fill my books with that So making sure you know to give myself little snacks along the way like so even though I'm doing the hard work
At least it's pretty or it's funny or I love the way the line goes on the page. And so like I always like sprinkle little goodies around for me. And when I'm doing the long I'm also like when I'm doing the scripts I have this page that I move and I write on it like you go or you got this I love you and stuff. So I see that all the time constantly my own like kind of reinforcing.
that I got it and I can do it because I know it's hard work and I know that I need to treat myself well.
Yasmine
Yeah, too yeah, you're loving on yourself. That is such a such a healthy attitude I feel.
M
Hmm It's so nice like it's really like you could just love yourself treat yourself nice like Yeah, why didn't I just come up with that?
Yasmine
Yeah like... What the fuck?
Yasmine
Absolutely. Yeah.
M
But I still have to remind myself like six years later like, I'm writing the script, I should pamper myself. And I really should because it's, it is hard and that's okay, like, you know, but it's also okay to to pamper yourself when you have to do hard things, I think.
Yasmine
It's so important. I mean, if you look at, you know, athletes and stuff, they get, you know, premium care for for doing that. There's a reason, right?
M
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
M
Exactly, yeah, because we're high level performers in a way, you know, like, yeah, and it doesn't
Yasmine
For sure. I mean that and yeah, yeah, go on. Well I at I mean even if one doesn't consider themselves a high level performer, if you want to get anywhere you have to start treating yourself that way.
M
No, you're gone.
M
Exactly, exactly. Yeah, I had a therapist. She worked with a lot of like sports performers and stuff like that. And she helped me a lot with a lot of these like techniques of how they do their things, you know, like and I really like the way she was like, yeah, you are a racehorse. I'm like, yes, I am. I need the best like food and care, like ice baths and whatever. Yeah, yeah. But if we're doing such important work, so that's also
Yasmine
Yeah.
Yasmine
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
M
I think taking it back or like taking the power back from a society that told us that art is volatile and frivolous and not important and stuff to really be like, well, this is very, very important and sacred stuff that I'm doing, you know, and I need to, yeah.
Yasmine
Absolutely. Absolutely. It's to me it's so central. Without beauty we die. It doesn't matter how much food we have, how much shelter we have, we fucking die without beauty and meaning.
M
Hmm. Yeah.
M
Yes, yes. And also, I remember seeing the survey during COVID saying like that everybody saw artists as being the most unessential profession while everybody was sitting home consuming movies, music, like, you know, all of this created by artists, you know, and I'm just like, you guys are just I can't even with you guys like I'm just going to give up.
Yasmine
Yes.
Yasmine
Yes.
Yasmine
Yes.
Yasmine
Yeah, and can you believe I was talking with an artist recently who told me that he believed that. He was like, Yeah, we're not, you know, I I get it. I know my place. We're not that essential. And I was like, dude, you're drinking the Kool-Aid. Like, this is so natural. I know myself, I would be dead if it wasn't for art. And I'm not even talking about art making, even though that too. But I'm just talking, even just music. If it wasn't for music, I'd be dead.
M
well.
M
Yeah.
M
Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah, same, same.
Yasmine
Yeah. So that was so nice. I'm really looking forward to having other conversations. yeah, this was so much fun.
M
Ugh.
M
Me too Me too amazing Amazing. Thank you so much for reaching out and the questions and and all of it I would love to do like a one for shadow work where we talk about dating and all of that
Yasmine
that would be great. I think we could have something really really cool going on there. Okay, is there anything you'd like to say before we leave? I'll just put all your links, you know, in the show notes and everything, but is there anything you would like to say or
M
Nothing specifically. I haven't thought about my big like ending thing Yeah Like I just I hope everybody make some art today, I guess that's all yeah
Yasmine
Famous, famous last words.
Yasmine
Yeah, that's a good one. Just that or that anybody you know, everybody benefits from hearing this. And you know. that's wonderful. Thank you so much, Mathilde. This was awesome.
If you'd like, I can also do a second pass to clean up the transcript (remove false starts, duplicated words, obvious transcription errors, and filler words) while keeping the speakers' natural voices. hey relate. and I understood that like your spiritual life is a central thing for you.
M (04:06.012)
Yeah.
M (04:18.407)
Yeah.
M (04:25.689)
Yeah, very much.
Yasmine (04:27.635)
Yeah, and so I'm wondering like, you know, just to start, I like first question that I would have is simply how did you how and when did you start making art?
M (04:42.152)
Well, I started when I was a child. I think I came into the world already an artist from a former life or something. Because when I look at the stuff that I did as a five-year-old doing watercolor paintings and stuff, it looks amazing. I would aspire to do that type of stuff today. So it's more like I think I was born that way and then there was an unlearning of
who I actually was that happened through the years, taking me away from my natural path, you know? And that then created some kind of purpose in me because finding my way back has become like my, well, one of the things that I help other artists to do, you know, to like find a way back.
Yasmine (06:36.801)
So okay, so so that idea of like the original intention, the re the original impulse and and and way of being of a child with art, you feel is really the the thing to go back to and something that you want to lead people back to.
M (06:49.701)
Mm-hmm.
M (06:53.742)
Mm-hmm.
M (06:59.79)
Well, not everybody. think children are all different and I don't think that all children are inherently born as artists. I think I was. And I've seen, I don't have kids of my own, but I have a niece and two nephews and their approach is very different. Their sensibilities are different. It's like they all come with their own personality and their own interests and stuff. like, I don't know.
So I'm not trying to take people back to being a child. I'm trying to take them back to the dream of becoming an artist that some people have. And then that dream gets destroyed by people telling them that they can't and it's impossible and they can't make money that way. And for me, one of the points that I make is that, of course you can. Like lots and lots of people make money being an artist. It's like a cultural myth we have because there's a fear of...
artists in this culture that we live in, you know? And I think in society there's wave of people or a big like force trying to scare people away from it. And what I'm saying is it's not for everybody. Not everybody needs to be an artist, but the ones that do, why aren't we allowed to be it? Like, why does it have to have so much shadow? For me anyway, that's what I meant growing up. I don't know how it was for you.
Yasmine (08:29.951)
Yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah, go on. Uh-huh. yeah, well art school really like messed me up, like hardcore. it really messed me up. It really told me that my way of expressing things was not right and nobody gave a shit. And that yeah, I mean I I'm an artist in s in spite of art school and I think a lot of people have that experience for sure.
M (08:30.294)
Bye-bye.
No, go on.
M (08:39.245)
Mm-hmm.
M (08:46.731)
Right.
M (08:55.298)
Yeah, for sure, for sure. It's so interesting also just like how you approach art, know, I've been watching these documentaries about Danish artists and and galleries and the whole thing like the whole ecosystem of art, right? And about like how you elevate an artist and how you elevate the prices and how you can elevate them, but only if there's international interest in their work and like stuff like this.
And you know, when you get into a museum, then well, then you're like, you're made because then someone like in an institution, like approved of you, gate kept you, you know, and for me, it has never been about that. Like it's never been about that. And I, and of course I'm also, you know, being influenced by all of this programming around money and art. And like, for me, it's so important to keep it.
Yasmine (09:50.177)
Mm-hmm.
M (09:54.172)
separate actually because as soon as money touches art it just like for me makes it like bad basically and Yeah, I don't know. It's so weird that something so precious and so beautiful and so valuable and natural and human can be turned into just this like Investment object basically, you know where it's just about a bunch of people trying to make as much money out of
Yasmine (10:03.092)
Mm.
M (10:21.907)
back of an artist as possible, you know, that's how I see it sometimes.
Yasmine (10:26.143)
Hmm. This is a difficult conversation, I feel. That the whole question. Because I mean, I I agree with you that when there's money pressure on art, that tends to make me feel a lot less free. and for instance, just a simple one would be whatever has worked for me and whatever has sold, I am tempted to do that again. Whereas that's not where I want to take my art.
M (10:31.496)
Yeah.
M (10:50.879)
Mm-hmm.
Yasmine (10:53.695)
Like that's my I I just that's not where I'm trying to go, you know. But at the same time, the idea that those two need to be fully separate, I wonder if it's not undermining us. And so I'm wondering like, how do you deal with that, like that tension basically, that you have to make a living? And then what's you know, there's money questions put a huge pressure on the artistic process and
M (10:58.484)
Mm-hmm.
M (11:06.962)
Amen.
M (11:11.967)
Hmm.
Yasmine (11:20.243)
Your choices, how do you deal with that? Yeah.
M (11:20.467)
Yeah, it does. Yeah, I mean, I deal with it in many different ways. think, you know, one of them is that I also have like a business where I do graphic design, illustration, not that much anymore, but I still have a few like kind of bigger clients or bigger projects every year that are like recurring every year that I do like a book, a yearly book, for instance, for a client. And like I have some illustration clients and stuff.
And when I'm doing that, I'm working for money, right? So I'm drawing for money. So I'm expecting the clients to come back and say, like, we don't like that color. And then I'll change it. I'll be like, OK, well, you guys are paying me. But whereas in the role of an artist, I'd be like, well, I'm not changing anything because this is exactly what I wanted to put out. So I think separating it for me has been great. And also keeping a foot in another world, because it seems like very much the art world doesn't
want to pay artists and like it's the general thing like that you're having too much fun so we shouldn't pay you or something I don't know like it's also layered right but I feel like for me coming from the commercial side from graphic design illustration where where clients understand that this type of thing skill craft to cause money has been good you know because it allowed me to also charge for my art and
When it comes to making money off of it, think having the different income sources is important. But also for me, it's been to keep my prices reasonable so a normal family can buy a piece of my work without it being like 17,000 or something. It's approachable for normal human beings. So it's not an investment object. That's not what I ever aim for. So that makes my client base way bigger, know, like the amount of people who can approach my work.
is way, bigger than a really famous artist who's charging millions for one piece. So those are some of the things how I approach it. mainly having different sources of income, so I never put that pressure on my art that it has to sell. That's the main reason for making it. And that being said, of course, I know what sells and sometimes I make some of them.
Yasmine (13:23.135)
Mm.
M (13:41.935)
just because it's nice to sell something every once in a while, you know?
Yasmine (13:48.0)
Yeah, of course. Yeah, that's that's great. Thank you. and yeah, I'm just thinking that keeping your prices low in terms of the actual art that you make is like in and of itself, that's almost you know, a kind of rebellious statement in yeah, right? In today's world.
M (13:53.435)
Yeah.
M (13:59.205)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
M (14:04.738)
Yeah. Yeah, it is. Yeah. Yeah.
Yasmine (14:10.239)
Yeah, because I mean I think the the whole idea of the price making the art look like almost grandiose. Like it's it's supposed to be sexier and it's supposed to be too good for you. You know, I don't know if you're you know what I mean? Like
M (14:23.405)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, there's all this psychology and pricing things, right? Like, and when you look at the international art market, whenever something sells at a ridiculous, insane price, this is like the news about art that reaches, like, mainstream media. It's like, ooh, Picasso sold for, like, this and that amount of millions, you know? And, yeah, it's just so interesting. And...
Yasmine (14:30.016)
Yeah.
M (14:48.858)
People approach art also with this very materialistic way of thinking. When I take my stuff to art fairs stuff, people always ask me how much time did it take to make that? That's their main question. Which is again in a production mode thinking. If it took a lot of time, it has more value. Where again I'm back to the 5 year old me putting intuitive dots on a piece of paper and creating something really magical.
Yasmine (15:02.966)
Yeah.
Yasmine (15:16.513)
Mm-hmm.
M (15:16.811)
And it didn't take me a long time. But that doesn't mean it doesn't have value. that's just another bit. That's like typical our production line thinking that we just all forced under.
Yasmine (15:19.755)
Mm-hmm.
Yasmine (15:29.313)
Yeah. That's so cool. I never realized that. Because you know, like a few days ago I had somebody ask me the ex that exact question. How how long did it take you? And they always do. Like people ask me that all the time. But I always thought it it was because, you know, my work is super detailed and really looks like a ton of work, which it is. And that's a personal thing. It's my vibe, you know, it doesn't make it better.
M (15:37.335)
Mm-hmm.
M (15:42.252)
Yeah.
M (15:51.736)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah. No.
Yasmine (15:57.268)
at all, like far from it. Actually, you know, it it can in and of itself be a pitfall to just spend too much time, you know what I mean? Like that whole
M (16:02.793)
Mm-hmm. Yes, I do. I've definitely been there too. Yeah
Yasmine (16:08.297)
Yeah, so so but it's just a per personal thing. It's just a personal style. But I thought that was the reason why people were asking that, but now you're telling me that. I'm like, of course.
M (16:11.883)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
M (16:18.183)
Yeah, I think, I mean, that's my theory of that's the underlying motive, because I've had that question so many times, but I also used to make way more detailed work. And maybe I got that question more. So maybe it is also I can't judge people fully. I take it back a little bit.
Yasmine (16:23.862)
Yeah.
Yasmine (16:37.183)
But yeah, but at the same time I have to say that I I never really understood that question. I I I mean I mean it's it it's like what? Are you asking that because you're considering doing the same thing and you're wondering if you have time for it? Like
M (16:42.263)
huh, yeah.
M (16:49.952)
Yeah, maybe it's because people want to be impressed, They want you to say that it took you 80 hours and then they're like, wow, you really put in 80 hours of work. I don't know. People also ask me with my books, my graphic novels, how long did it take, right? And that's a different beast because that takes like years, like maybe three years, the whole project's taking like a decade. So yeah, but I don't know if people are impressed by that, but they...
Yasmine (17:01.63)
Yeah.
Yasmine (17:05.569)
Mm-hmm.
Yasmine (17:09.259)
Course.
For sure.
M (17:18.474)
They like it somehow, you I think it's maybe it's also a way of making a myth about something, you know, like, yeah, yeah.
Yasmine (17:20.949)
Yeah.
Yasmine (17:25.127)
Mm-hmm. Don't you think that it can be a problem? It's just a small question. I mean, I I would like to to to to go towards the whole question of art and spirituality in a minute. But I just I'm just curious. Does that thing of like I I grew up making art? I started making art when I was about two years old, according to the family story. because I don't remember, but
M (17:30.613)
Mm-hmm.
M (17:35.005)
Yeah. Yeah.
M (17:44.533)
Mmm. Mmm.
Yeah, that's the myth of you. That's cool.
Yasmine (17:51.842)
That's what I was told. but but and then I never stopped. And because of that I don't know what it is not to be that person and I don't know what it is to approach art as an quote unquote outsider.
M (17:53.983)
Yeah.
M (17:57.567)
Mm-hmm.
M (18:02.613)
Mmm.
Yasmine (18:09.459)
And I sometimes I feel like that's made me pretty blind to people's motives or like it's it's been very hard for me to really put myself in in somebody else's shoes if they don't have themselves an art practice and they're approaching it like from the outside in. I wonder if you you feel that way too.
M (18:25.397)
Mmm.
Mm.
M (18:32.669)
Well, I have been away from it. So I think like I had years because I well then I'm going to get into it a little bit to just explain that. I studied art history. I have a master's degree in art history. And during those years, I became like extremely blocked. I used to like dabble around and I had exhibitions and I like everybody knew me as the girl who painted, maybe not like an artist, but like,
If I met someone from my old school or something, they would always ask, are you still painting? You know, that would be like part of my identity, but that disappeared during those years in university. Also, like you say, art school will destroy you. Art history will definitely also destroy you. Like, because I was looking at all the great masters and thinking like, well, I might as well quit because I'm never going to reach these levels. I'm never going to be in these history books. I'm never going to, you know, all of that. So.
And also like I had some rejection things from art school, which I never got into. Kind of thank God now that I've heard so many stories and I've seen so many things what happening to people in these institutions. I'm like, thank God they didn't touch my innocence in a way, you know, but. So for many years I wasn't an artist. I definitely didn't identify as one at all. And then I don't know, I got well back into it in a way of
in a backwards way because I studied art history, couldn't get a job for like three years. I was desperate. was like, I need another career. I need something different. And in Denmark, because I already had spent like all my clips on a higher education, I could only go down lower. So I took an education as a graphic designer and started doing graphics and loved it, you because I think my brain loves to problem solve visually.
I would go home from work and think about like, how am going to fix this fly or how can I make this? Like I was really like my hyper focus was on and then I started working for clients, like doing illustrations. And then I started getting very frustrated with my clients wanting to force my hand all the time. And I feel like I know better, I know better. And the artist in me was coming out like more and more, you know, like from the depths of where I put it. So, and finally I broke free of most of
M (20:57.113)
my illustration work too, you know, and just do what I want, like, finally. So that's a long answer to that.
Yasmine (21:06.091)
Yeah, no, that's great. That's that's great. So so yeah. Interesting. I also studied history of art, but it didn't have the same effect on me for some reason. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean it was it was its own form of miserable, but not not not in that way.
M (21:07.492)
Yeah.
M (21:14.097)
Okay, good, good for you.
M (21:24.903)
Not that. No, but mean there were also other factors. I won't blame art history alone. Like my dad was an artist and he died like very tragically. And I think in my mind I really also connected being an artist with being very out of control, volatile, an alcoholic and all of these things. Like yeah, in my mind it just became like the same. Like if you choose that path,
Yasmine (21:51.137)
Mm-hmm.
M (21:52.95)
you're going to end up dead, basically. And so that took a lot of unblocking for me, too. Like the fear of this life, because it's also like now that I'm a full time artist, it's an extremely free life. You you have to be able to, I think, have some structure and not just like sit and day drink at a bar. I could do that, you know, for periods of time. But I've still called so much to work that that I work, you know, but I think
Yasmine (21:57.044)
M (22:23.001)
the level of freedom requires some kind of maturity as well, you Yeah.
Yasmine (22:28.801)
Totally. Yeah, yeah. And I I understand that you you you I'm not sure if if if I'm right here, but that you you did the process of the artist's way, the Julia Cameron book. Yeah, it's very cool. Yeah, yeah.
M (22:39.01)
Yeah, I did it. I did it many times. Yeah, it's It totally changed my life like Yeah, like props That book is amazing. She's amazing. I did a seminar with her in London a couple of years ago Yeah, yeah Yeah
Yasmine (22:54.811)
man. I've been I've been looking for like I've I've I've done it too, but I'd like to do it again. But I'd like to do it again with other people now, so
M (23:00.461)
Yeah.
Maybe we can join together, I'll be down. Amazing! Yeah! Yeah.
Yasmine (23:05.977)
me too. Awesome. That's great. but yeah, but you know, in that in that book she talks about the whole question of like those those beliefs in society about, you know, being an artist and basically being fucked up. Yeah. So I I yeah, definitely recognize that. that like that
M (23:17.57)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes.
M (23:24.971)
Yeah, I definitely internalized that too and also from seeing it like directly, you know in front of my eyes like What she's talking about. I saw that happening But I don't think it was because my dad was an artist of mob just because he was a drunk honestly Like it didn't really it was the other way around like Yeah
Yasmine (23:36.735)
Yeah, that's it.
Yasmine (23:46.485)
Yeah, it's so interesting how that trauma actually had a lot more f like that belief was a lot bigger for you. For me it wasn't so deep that one. For me it was more like you're gonna be broke.
M (23:57.454)
yeah, me too. Yeah, living in the streets have been like a big... Yeah.
Yasmine (24:00.244)
yeah. Yeah, same, same. Like like a just a kind of scarecrow image, you know, in my in on my mind all the time. But yeah, but you had like first first hand experience with actual, like yeah. I mean, I I I I can understand how that belief, you know, the stuff of being messed up. Like for me, that was less the case, but it's in culture. You can feel it in culture. But so then my question now is.
M (24:07.105)
Yeah, yeah, I'm so good.
M (24:21.164)
Thank
M (24:24.734)
It is, it is exactly.
Yasmine (24:29.747)
Okay, the this is a broad question. So I'm I'm I can make it more precise, but let's start with the broad and see how we do. how would you to you what's what's what's a way that you could say your spirituality and your art practice relate? How do they how do they come together for you? Are they the same thing? Are they not the same thing? How do they articulate?
M (24:37.195)
Yeah.
M (24:52.044)
Mm.
M (24:58.059)
Well, I think in the way of channeling, because I feel like I channel a lot from spirit or, yeah, just call it spirit. And I learned during the years to open myself to that connection and to really just receive, be a channel. And I do that all the time. And I'm very much in co-creation with spirit all the time.
sorry, that's my dog. Let me just give him a second to you. Okay, Mickey. He's joking Yeah, it's so cute. my god Yeah, I mean I I was in 12 step also like Julie Cameron for a while and
Yasmine (25:37.675)
Hey Mickey
M (25:54.004)
During that time I did a residency in Italy and in that, I mean, I've been coming back to spirituality. was never something I grew up with. It was never allowed in my household. My parents were actually very anti-religion and spirituality wasn't even mentioned as an option or a theme. you know, it's just like, we don't believe in anything in this house. So for me, it's been like a coming back and also removing a lot of shame around that because they used to always be like...
a religious opium for the people and it's a way of escaping and it's a way of not dealing with the actual problems in front of you and all of this like kind of also bad programming about that. So when I was in 12 step, of course, a lot of that is about surrendering to a higher power and I really was asking to do God's work a lot in Italy, like on my knees, walking around and just praying.
for that, whatever that meant, you know, because I didn't know what that exactly would look like or would mean. And then the trilogy of graphic novels that I'm working on came through. And I'm sure that it came through because I presented myself as an available workforce for Spirit. And I was like, I'm willing to take on this work for you, whatever it may be. And so whatever I do is always like in service of that.
Also like the very playful things and the silly things and the acting like a child at 45 things and all of that is in service, you know So yeah
Yasmine (27:30.677)
Mm, yeah, I hear you totally. yeah, it can relate to the to the the spirituality not really being an option, growing up in a super hardcore like
M (27:32.424)
Mmm.
Yasmine (27:43.04)
rationalistic scientist materialists thing where yeah, yeah, yeah. My my parents were agnostic and respectful, but generally the vibe was like you can't say the word God, for instance, like are you crazy? Like you maybe you need medication. And that was not even my it was more like where I grew up, like the school I went to, et cetera. My parents were a little bit more open, but they were more like, look, we don't know, so you don't ask questions you can't answer.
M (27:44.732)
Yeah. Wow.
M (28:01.351)
We asked.
M (28:12.678)
And, you
Yasmine (28:13.904)
And so, yeah, so you know, anyway, but so if I understand well, in a certain way, you know, the divine spirit, higher power, whatever you call it, is like a set it's not it's not art, but it is the source of art, and you present yourself as a channel, right? Okay, and then but then
M (28:26.704)
Yeah.
M (28:35.664)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yasmine (28:39.681)
How would you say what would you say that the place of artists are in society? Because you could contend in a way that everybody can be a channel for higher power without art. Like you can, I don't know, maybe you're a street sweeper, to just to give the the very like cliche, you know, super cliche example. But maybe maybe you're a street sweeper and you could do it in a way that is gorgeous and artful and
M (28:55.45)
Yeah. Definitely. Yeah.
M (29:04.656)
Yeah.
Yasmine (29:09.565)
is you know channeling higher power in its desire to care for you know this the the the cities in which people live that kind of stuff so what what would you say makes like artists different in that way as channels
M (29:12.678)
Definitely.
M (29:28.207)
I don't know that we are. Like what you're saying is like the monks building the sand and then whispering it away again like or everything can be a sin practice, right? Like sweeping the floor and...
Yasmine (29:37.601)
Mm-hmm.
M (29:42.565)
I don't know, we just like, guess our thing produces a result or some kind of physical object, I guess. But I don't know that we are different actually. It's just a matter of, I think spirit also uses us where we have the skill set. Because of course I came through something, so spirit can use me specifically for things that I also have a worldly understanding of. If I've seen
Yasmine (29:55.531)
Mm-hmm.
M (30:11.896)
what it is to be a blocked artist from all angles because I was so blocked myself they can use me for exactly that so I think it's like a co-creation with spirit and humanity so to speak you know so whatever spirit of course channels through me also gets washed through my personal experiences and comes out probably twisted and messed up I guess like yeah
Yasmine (30:38.752)
Yeah, but you try to try to get out of the way as much as possible, right?
M (30:43.363)
I mean, yeah, yeah, I... both yes and no, you know?
Yasmine (30:48.298)
I mean, I don't mean I don't mean, yeah, it's an interesting question. It's like it's not even getting out of the way as your true self, you could say. But at least you have your have everything that is against that channeling be out of the way for now and just be on the side so that's because I mean, indeed, like if you're a channel, the channel is you. There's a reason for it, and it has to express in a very specific way, which is the one that you can give. Like, yeah, yeah, I get it. But like the, you know.
M (30:51.682)
Mm-hmm.
M (30:56.48)
Yeah.
M (31:13.411)
Exactly.
Yasmine (31:18.56)
Whatever is is not you, 'cause we have so much of that inside of us that is not us, you know. I guess that's what you're by asking to do God's will, that's what you're trying to get out of the way, right? Mm-hmm.
M (31:21.495)
Yeah. huh. Yeah.
M (31:30.302)
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. And I think that's also what's giving me the strength to write, I mean, all these books that I have written and drawing all those pages and stuff. I don't know, I have put like notes in my in my room and my studio saying all glory to God. It's also a way of keeping my ego out of it and being like, whatever I do, I don't really have to take.
the glory for it because I didn't really do it. So it's a way of also channeling a work ethic and power to do all of that, what I need to do. And I couldn't do it alone. I I know that I have.
that with me, separating it, yeah, mean, everything that's smarter than me is that, you know? I guess all of that structure that I can see. then, especially when I'm writing, it's such a magical experience because I'll see something on a sign or a little note or online or whatever, and it's just like the exact missing puzzle piece. And I'm like, okay, well, Spirit put it there for me to pick it up and see it, and I'm doing it. And that's the interaction, I think.
Yasmine (32:19.628)
Mm-hmm.
M (32:43.051)
That's how I think about it. But I mean, I don't know.
Yasmine (32:43.298)
Totally.
No, absolutely. I mean you have to keep an open mind and and like that's so important actually. If you if if if there's that idea that I channel something, I have to make that very clear that the real thing is that I don't know.
M (32:51.423)
Yeah.
M (33:03.07)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And letting it come and also trusting. think like when I'm when I'm thinking about myself painting is very much about like breathing and trusting that the line I'm going to make is the line that needs to be there. like when I started painting murals outside, I was coming from very detailed, tiny little dot work drawings. And I went outside, my friends started painting huge murals in the street. And one of the things that I chose is like
I don't want to have a sketch, I don't want to have a plan, so I just stood in front of the wall with a brush in my hand. And then I felt that my hand was being moved, you know? And that, I loved that feeling so much because it's just so fun and so free and there's no real risk, there's nothing you can fuck up. And it's very a body experience too, you know, like a big movement with your arms and your shoulders and...
And I think that definitely helped me to channel too because I just like closed my eyes and some image popped into my head and I just made it, you Yeah.
Yasmine (34:09.43)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. I I work a lot with that vision stuff. Like it's always been like that. I just I have an image in in my head and I'm like, wow, that would be cool. But yeah, there's something you said that just won wants to make me just go back a little bit. You were talking about, you know, keeping your ego out of the way and
M (34:16.36)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
M (34:22.054)
Isn't that?
Yasmine (34:32.364)
Doing that stuff, and and that that phrase of for the glor the glory of God reminded me of, you know Bach, the the the composer? Yeah, he actually signed his compositions with SDG and not his name, but SDG Solid Deo Gloria.
M (34:40.712)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
M (34:53.446)
Mmm. Wow.
Yasmine (34:55.048)
And I've been I've been wanting to be anonymous and to make like to have, you know, like a separate website and to move the operations. I've been alwa I always wanted to be anonymous because it's no I n I hate signing my work. I do it but actually I don't even do it on the work itself. I do it in the back, and even that is just I do it because people ask for it. I
M (35:04.072)
Mm.
M (35:20.571)
you
Yasmine (35:21.826)
Hate that stuff. Because ideally, this has not much to do with me. I mean, it does totally, but who cares? Is the thing. Like, if if it was about me, I'd show myself, not the work. And and it's, and I'm not saying that from a place of shame or of, I'm not. You know, no, I'm I'm great. I mean, I can show myself. I'm fine. Like, it's I'm interesting. Every human being is interesting, but.
M (35:27.749)
it's certainly, yeah.
M (35:35.664)
Yeah. Yeah.
M (35:41.82)
and one.
Yasmine (35:48.779)
I just, you know, I think that's something that I've been considering a lot is to actually be totally anonymous and just and I actually signed my work SDG once, some paintings, and when they sold, the gallery owner called me and was like, What's SDG? The client wants to know. And I sent him, I was so nasty. I said I sent him a Wikipedia page with a list of acronyms.
M (35:54.908)
Yeah.
M (35:59.825)
Mm-hmm.
M (36:08.262)
Yeah.
Yasmine (36:18.793)
that that it could be and I was like well you choose.
M (36:23.516)
But they didn't force you to sign your actual name?
Yasmine (36:29.12)
He didn't force me in the end, but he was pissed off and never and never worked with me again. Jeep poopsy. yeah. But yeah, so that idea I I don't know how you feel about the idea of just like actually being really fully anonymous when you make work, like how how joyful and liberating it feels to me. Do you do you can you relate or do you
M (36:33.404)
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, well, it was probably for the best. mean, yeah, yeah.
M (36:54.554)
I haven't really thought about it. I can imagine it being a very interesting space to move in. I think about lot of graffiti and street artists. We have Bakesy and also in Denmark we have a guy. He's been anonymous for years and now he's doing museum shows and stuff. it's like... I mean... But I think definitely you can do some great things.
in that space. haven't, like, I use myself very, much in my work and,
Yasmine (37:24.042)
Mm.
M (37:32.858)
So couldn't really imagine it, I think it would be interesting to explore for sure.
Yasmine (37:33.002)
Mm.
Yasmine (37:41.515)
Yeah, yeah, for me it's it's it's like it's highly attractive. Really, it's like I'm yeah, it's been on my mind for years and years. But I was wondering, what's like what's to you, what's the importance if any, for you specifically of having it like spiritually for you.
M (37:45.678)
Yeah.
M (37:51.226)
It's just.
Yasmine (38:07.148)
What's the effect of having an artistic practice? How do you feel you would be if you didn't have one? And like yeah, like spiritually speaking.
M (38:20.249)
Well, mean... Well, it's so connected. I can't imagine. I would die. If I couldn't do art, I would absolutely just collapse. think it's saving my life on the daily. And it's all I do, basically. It's all I do. Can you hear me being rattled? No, I can't.
Yasmine (38:43.166)
yeah.
M (38:43.992)
Yeah, even if I go to the summer house for two days I'm already like crawling on the walls and just like I need to I need to outlet constantly you know and I think but I did art before I found spirituality it was just like way way different and way more sort of controlled and scared and and not as fun
Yasmine (39:08.17)
Mm.
M (39:08.768)
And like maybe with less purpose, I don't want to put myself, my passive down in a way, but everything about it was different, you know, like.
Yasmine (39:23.136)
Was it have you found that because I was gonna ask you about the pitfalls of being an artist spiritually and one of the the pitfalls that I can find is that that that exact thing of making it about me and about how worthy I am or about how you know how gifted I am or or or or or comparing and and yeah, so yeah, I'm wondering about that.
M (39:36.3)
Yeah.
M (39:39.958)
Yeah.
M (39:43.864)
Oh yeah, yeah.
M (39:50.177)
Yeah, I think for me, being spiritual, I also have a very big connection to shadow parts and shadow sides and being bad and being human and faulty and corrupted and having bad thoughts and stuff. So I never try to be like, I'm all spiritual and great. I have an ego. It's big.
And you know, I also have a need to be seen. I acknowledge that in me that one of things I find really fun is also dressing up and like going outside and having people stare at me for some reason. I don't know why I have this in me. But it's OK. You know, I try to be like, OK, you have this side. Sometimes I think nasty bad thoughts and I'm trying to be like, OK, well, this is you came from the jungle, girl. It's OK. Like you you were still a monkey at some point. And
Yasmine (40:27.778)
Mm-hmm.
Yasmine (40:45.398)
Yeah.
M (40:46.268)
And you know, like, so I think being an artist, also like feeds me, you know, and I think that I also need, like, I've been thinking a lot about like outside recognition and like when you get to the point where you start getting all the stuff and you know, you're winning awards, you're getting grants and all of that.
Yasmine (40:48.566)
Mm-hmm.
M (41:11.509)
then you're starting to realize, well, there's nothing on any of these shelves that I've been trying to get all this stuff. And when I get it, it feels empty or it's not really... But I still feel like we're doing stuff and not just in the dark. mean, if I painted a painting that no one ever saw, would it matter that type of thought experiment? And I think...
I do want to be seen. I am okay with that. I'm okay with my ego parts and stuff. I think I have a pretty clear view of how my personality is structured.
Yeah, I mean, there are pitfalls. You have to remain humble also, I think. But I don't know, like... It's a kind of a game and interaction that as well, you know, because if everything was just too easy, it would also be boring, I guess, so...
Yasmine (42:09.324)
Yeah, I like I l I love that. And and yeah, for what I understand about the twelve step way of life and process, it keeps you very close to your shadow. Like you're you have to look at your shit like ideally daily if I understand well. and and that's that's a huge deal. I I I have a big, you know, like I'm on my
M (42:11.284)
Yeah.
M (42:16.276)
M (42:24.403)
Yeah.
Yasmine (42:32.268)
How do you say that? You know, it's it's one of my big things, you know, that if unless we f we face our shadow and we own that and we don't try to be quote unquote good, you know, or like you know like we are actually actively harming people around us when we don't, you know, take ownership of that and
M (42:44.553)
Yeah.
M (42:50.782)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Yasmine (42:54.848)
And when I say ownership, what I what I think I love is just that attitude of not considering that's such a bad thing. It's not in a way that, my God, I have shadow elements and so I'm a terrible person. It's just like, okay, I suck sometimes and I mess up, you know. And how incredibly important and balanced it it can like how how important it is and how balanced a human being. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
M (43:05.84)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
M (43:15.758)
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And I feel that very much also with emotions, like the other day I was feeling lonely and I'm just trying to accept that in me and be like, okay, well, you're feeling lonely, baby. It's a part of human experience. Like, you're not gonna escape that ever. You might as well just like lean more into it, you know? And yeah, I think it's beautiful to accept the parts.
Yasmine (43:38.464)
Mm.
M (43:44.496)
Also the ugly parts.
Yasmine (43:46.751)
Yeah, and my sense is that you know what? I mean in this world I feel like if you're not feeling lonely, you're just lying to yourself. Like w we need connection so badly, and this is a world that really does not like help us connect in a way that is I mean, most of us have huge trauma that get in the way of connection. the way our society is structured really doesn't make for that. And
M (43:53.316)
Mm-hmm, yeah. Yeah, maybe, yeah.
M (44:09.54)
Yeah.
Yasmine (44:16.404)
Like I I ha I'm having to be completely re educated in order to be capable of connecting with people in a way that is sane and and loving and like I had to completely like change so much about me for that. And that's not like I don't I come from a you know like you could say in a way if the the fish is sick, maybe the it's not that the fish is sick, it's that the tank is dirty.
M (44:22.866)
huh.
Yeah.
M (44:30.162)
Yeah.
M (44:38.512)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I mean, I can only agree. I can only agree that the times we live in now are so hardcore and just getting worse and worse, like with AI and with dating apps and the kids in school. And like, I just heard a survey here, like how girls are so much more depressed than boys. And it's just, you know, it's so massive. It's so massive. And the re-education, I very much relate to that. I mean, I did all of the...
Yasmine (45:00.386)
Mm-hmm.
M (45:08.281)
the deep diving and digging in my subconscious to reprogram myself out of a lot of stuff, know, like also just romantic love, which I just think is like complete bullshit basically. So yeah.
Yasmine (45:21.864)
Mmm, I'd be super interested in having a conversation about the whole question of romantic love, men, women, and stuff. And I yeah, I understand that that's one of your big topics and it is a huge yes. Absolutely. I would love that. Yeah. Okay.
M (45:27.693)
Yes. Yeah.
M (45:32.993)
Maybe we can do one for my podcast. can swap it. Awesome. Awesome. Let's do it. Yay.
Yasmine (45:45.003)
And then what would you think that for somebody like you? Because I can I can really relate to the stuff of not making art being really going against my nature and being really, really unhealthy for somebody like me. At least I mean those are my words. like it it yeah, it's it's it's a little bit the same as if I didn't have any touch in my life, you know, like body git touch or
M (45:58.926)
Yeah.
M (46:08.847)
Hmm, yeah. Yeah.
Yasmine (46:12.106)
You know, is that or if I was disconnected from my sleep and I almost never slept and slept only on sleeping pills. To me, it's kind of the same. Like the result is like I I am a lot less alive. I've become I've become very brittle. Yeah, it's just I lose vitality in a in a crazy way when I don't engage in some form of practice. And so to me, in a way, it is part of my spiritual practice that I have to do that in the same way that.
M (46:18.151)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
M (46:25.527)
Yeah.
Yasmine (46:38.9)
I abstain from certain things. There are, you know, yeah, certain practices that I have, also looking at shadow, etc. So yeah, would you agree with that? That in a way you could say that it's part of basic the self-care that is necessary in order that we are responsible for in order to show up in the world in a way that is actually loving and positive.
M (46:41.037)
Mm-hmm.
M (46:47.629)
one.
M (46:58.413)
Mm-hmm.
Definitely, definitely. Yeah, because yeah, I mean I would turn into a rancid bitch if I didn't have my art practice I wouldn't like so yeah, I'm doing everybody a favor sitting doing some ceramics
Yasmine (47:14.282)
A ranc a rancid bitch. I love it. That is it.
M (47:19.149)
That's it, don't take this from me. It's like I'm gonna turn into a crazy beast. yeah, yeah. And also, of course, there's something very meditative about sitting and actually doing the work. And for me, I definitely am neurodivergent. I don't know exactly how, but it's taking me to that place of pure presence and beingness and just dipping the...
Yasmine (47:25.332)
Mm.
M (47:45.961)
the brush and the ink and putting it on a surface and that like very it's very real it's very not a screen it's like the the materia or something I don't know exactly the word I'm looking for but
Yasmine (48:01.8)
matter, like the ac yeah.
M (48:02.78)
Yeah, the matter, yeah, and that connects me, you know, and that's so simple, so basic, but that's like, it's so basic to go outside and touch the ground, but it will make you feel so much better when you do it. So it's like, it's so simple things, I think that regulators and makers like feel better. And, and that's also a thing like, we deserve to feel good, you know, like I think there's a lot of shame also around like taking the time and the
the indulgence in just sitting and doing that. I mean, it's not anymore because it's my very serious job, right? But when you're starting out, think like a lot of people struggle to take the time to do that because it feels like a self-indulgent thing to do. And it's really not because you're doing everybody a favor, I think so.
Yasmine (48:50.56)
Yeah, that's that that thing of of stopping to see me and my good as opposite, as the opposite of other people's good. And like if I feel happy, it's just better for everyone. Like for me, that was a big time when I started, you know, realizing, you know, my my footprint on the world and watching that, watching how do I affect the world around me.
M (48:51.466)
No.
M (48:59.71)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yasmine (49:19.948)
The whole question of like self-care is absolutely central to this because it's not that if I care for me, I don't care for you, is that by caring for me I'm actually much more able to care for you because otherwise I have nothing to give, right?
M (49:24.842)
Mm-hmm.
M (49:34.473)
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yasmine (49:37.438)
Yeah. And and yeah, the the the stuff of like neurodivergence. I feel like w we don't have a fair chance in this world, you know, we all I mean a lot of people are neurodivergents, so much so that I'm like, is it even divergence at this point?
M (49:46.45)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, is it the guys who are not are the divergent ones at this point? But maybe it's also the circles you move in because I heard that we flock together. So was like, yeah.
Yasmine (49:56.546)
Yeah.
Yasmine (50:02.978)
yeah, that's that thank you. That's possible that we're in an echo chamber.
M (50:06.32)
All the other ones are sitting in an office and you don't see them. Maybe.
Yasmine (50:11.01)
I don't know. But yeah, for sure. Like that stuff of just chilling in the hyper focus. Like it's such a soft bubble for me. Like such a good, nice, cozy bubble of just, you know, chilling in the hyper focus.
M (50:23.88)
Yeah.
M (50:28.07)
Yeah, no, I love it. I love my hyper focus abilities and I use it also when I skate and so I skate the streets and I use my hyper focus and then that's also very connected to my body, which is super great also because I do a lot of like brain work and spiritual things and stuff and so connecting it down to the 3D experience is like, yeah, it's just it's just the next level joy and for me it's has been and I think a big word for me is joy.
And I think spirit wants us to be joyful. So it's again, I'm just basically doing the job of God because I am happy. Like, you know, that's what it is. So, yeah. Yeah.
Yasmine (51:08.502)
Hmm, mmm, yeah, I love it. I absolutely love it. And love the idea of joy. And like to me, my experience of joy was that how different it is from happiness. And that it's possible to be in joy even in the worst of griefs.
M (51:15.016)
Mm-hmm.
M (51:20.678)
Mmm, I don't know.
M (51:27.014)
Yeah.
Yasmine (51:27.212)
There is, you know, there is a joyful thing that I feel alive and I see beauty. I see the beauty of what's going on, even though I'm I can be in pain. I can be you know, like to me that's what I love. That's how I see joy. I I don't know if you can relate to that or
M (51:41.838)
Yeah, no, definitely, definitely. also like, yeah, finding it in the in the hard moments, you know, and but that's also part of this like radical acceptance. And also, think making a contract for me out that I wanted to feel everything I've definitely also said to spirit, like I want to feel everything, give it all to me. So that's very brave and also maybe stupid.
Yasmine (52:02.762)
Mm.
Yasmine (52:08.962)
Yes, prayers are the most stupid prayers.
M (52:11.331)
I guess so.
Yeah, then be like, okay, you want to feel it all? Here you go.
Yasmine (52:18.134)
Yeah, I had the same. I was like, please teach me how to love because I realized I wasn't able to I didn't know how to love and I was like, come on, teach me, because I have no idea. And guess what? Like the world like crashed on my face after I said that.
M (52:22.694)
No.
M (52:30.854)
you
Wow, that's amazing. I love the alchemy. I love the way that you can interact with this and shape your life, you know, like it's completely magical. Yeah.
Yasmine (52:45.76)
That's the f that's the magic. That's the pure magic. Is like when I realize that like the way I say it is reality talks back. It talks back to me. My God, if I speak to reality, it will talk back to me? What the fuck is this? Like how cruel is this?
M (52:52.738)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
M (52:59.524)
Yeah.
Yeah, no, it's so crazy and you can bend your own world. I mean, the stuff that I'm doing now is something that I never would have imagined like 10 years ago, you know, yeah. And when it does and when you start jumping, the path starts. That's also Julia Cameron thing. Well, when you leap, the net will appear and it does like that show me again and again, like every time I take the chance and I take the step forward and I'm just going to trust in spirit and trust that this is my path.
Yasmine (53:09.771)
Yes.
Yeah, it takes you places, huh?
M (53:32.769)
Well, turns out it is. Even the most crazy things that I can come up with can become a reality pretty fast. So I mean, that's so much fun. And for me, that's like the fun of being alive right now. mean, skating and that. You're just manifesting.
Yasmine (53:49.395)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, you're talking pure magic here. And and I'm I'm I'm smiling like bigly, as one of our favorite politicians likes to say. I'm smiling bigly, listening to you. Hey, I I we we don't have much time left, and I would like to end on something that that is dear to me, like as a question is I would like to know what
M (53:54.819)
you
Yasmine (54:16.574)
What excites you right now? What's exciting? What's your what are your the the projects that are exciting to you or the ideas or the perspectives? Like, you know, what's up with that?
M (54:28.614)
Well, that's hard because you catching me in a moment of not being that excited. I mean, yeah. Yeah.
Yasmine (54:36.482)
That's interesting too though. We can go there. We can definitely go there. That's a big part of it. So would you would you like to go there? Like just go wherever whatever's alive right now. I would love to to hear that.
M (54:47.009)
Yeah, definitely. So I'm working, like I mentioned, on a trilogy of graphic novels and it's like 1,100 pages of drawings. And I did two of the books. I'm wrapping up the third. So I'm at this point where this project has been so big, the script is still not done, I have a deadline. I have to kind of like coerce myself into reading the script at this point. I'm like...
I'll get you a cake, I'll get you this nice coffee, what if we sit in bed and look at it and I light a candle and stuff, really pamper myself. Because it's hard work, it's really hard and I really want it to be good and at the same time I want to let go and just be done. So I'm struggling with my, well I think all artists have this impatience and I definitely, I'm like a racehorse, I'm like...
Can we get done so I can move on to the fucking next? But I'm forced right now to not, to stay and to finish it and to... Part of writing is like rewriting, right? And revisiting and looking at it again and again and again and so... I was just thinking to myself today like when I'm done with this, I'm gonna get excited. I'm gonna start painting. I'm gonna do something. But at this moment, I'm just in the trenches of hard work basically strapped my ego in and trying to do this.
Yasmine (55:42.41)
Mm.
M (56:09.121)
without praise and anything. So yeah, like.
Yasmine (56:15.072)
Yeah. yeah, I r I very much recognize that place. And so it's a whole question of like how do you you know, it reminds me of that saying. I don't know if you ever read that book, very a very masculine book, but I really love it. The War of Art.
M (56:16.225)
Bye.
Mmm, yeah.
M (56:33.618)
Mmm. I've heard about it. I haven't read it yet, but I will.
Yasmine (56:37.69)
yeah, I can't remember the author's name, but he's he's he's a he's a fun one. And and and I would really recommend it for a very you know, like if Julia Cameron is the very feminine side of things, very spiritual, very open, it's all about joy. And it's actually a friend of mine who who said that to me. He was like, yeah, Julia Cameron is the feminine and that dude, the war of art guy, that's the masculine approach, you know?
M (56:42.28)
Uh-huh.
M (57:05.033)
Interesting, interesting.
Yasmine (57:05.79)
Which is all about war and you know, you show up and you do the work and and it's actually he's not dumb about it. He's really good. He's really great. Like I would not recommend it if it wasn't if it was just
M (57:12.915)
Yeah. Yeah.
No, I can... You're not the first person to recommend it to me, so I'm like, I'm taking note, notice always when people recommend me books, especially when it's happening again. Yeah.
Yasmine (57:26.122)
And and it actually it might be the right moment for you to to to to read it. But I remember that there's a quote in that book. he was talking to a guy who who who trains horses for racing. And that guy was saying, I want my I I can't you know, I'm paraphrasing obviously, but something like, I want my horses to love the track.
M (57:28.991)
Mm-hmm.
Yasmine (57:49.461)
I don't want to have them, you know, like and so basically what the guy did is that he would let his horses run, but he would always stop before they started getting tired. So that the next day they were excited to go back. And so for me that was a very Ooh, I'm having an echo. yeah, I think it should be fine.
M (57:49.705)
Yeah.
M (58:02.278)
Hi. Yeah.
Yasmine (58:17.13)
Yeah, and I can hopefully remove it in post production. But yeah, so for me that was a that that whole question of like not driving myself to exhaustion, but instead just working short, like four hours for me, considering the work I do, like the what I make, is really not much. I I used to do like twelve hours in a row or something.
M (58:19.959)
okay.
M (58:31.42)
Mm-hmm.
M (58:38.213)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
M (58:45.328)
Mmm, yeah. Yeah.
Yasmine (58:47.028)
And and and but just keeping it four hours that are like really intense and really present and then stopping and taking a huge break and hanging out and just enjoying and connecting to inspiration and all that really, really helped me. And I hear that you're you're having to come up with like similar strategies or
M (59:02.136)
Yeah. Yeah.
M (59:09.328)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. And I could do better. I could take more like quote unquote artists dates and like pour in my well, I used to have this image in my head of like a sponge. And once the sponge is super dry and you squeeze all the juice out of that sponge, you have to go water it before you can squeeze it again. And it's the same kind of idea, right?
Yasmine (59:29.452)
Mm-hmm.
Yasmine (59:35.778)
Totally.
M (59:36.665)
Yeah, that you have to pamper your inner artists and take them fun places. I'm doing some of that with skating. Like I just put like sequence on my skates with a glue gun, like I'm five years old or seven or something. Yeah, it's super nice. It makes me happy. And like it's not a serious art project. And then I have the script and the trilogy and all that seriousness. But I'm also I've been consistently trying to make it fun. And I've insisted that it needs to be fun for me because
Yasmine (59:48.514)
Nice.
M (01:00:06.372)
I also just don't want to have the legacy of being like, I drew all this and I hated every second of it. Like a lot of cartoonists really do have that attitude that they just hate the work. And I just never wanted to push myself that far, know, that I pushed myself into resenting the work and myself. Yeah.
Yasmine (01:00:27.02)
That's that's okay, that's a that's a fascinating one. We almost out of time, but I'm just thinking okay, because this is thank you. This is this is a thing for me. It's it's part of the work I I I am in absolute joy with it.
M (01:00:35.279)
It's okay, Yeah, don't rush it. Yeah.
Yasmine (01:00:49.492)
And part of the work when I'm really actually trying to do something like, you know, to make something quote unquote serious in the sense that I'm really like, okay, I'm taking this on and you know, I'm not just like dabbling and having fun. And when I say just, I don't mean that in a like that is sacred, sacred stuff too, you know. But I mean that I'm I'm not doing that. I'm really in the thing of no, I am trying to produce and I'm working for a result here.
M (01:00:55.822)
Mm-hmm.
M (01:01:07.318)
Yeah, of course. Yeah.
M (01:01:16.878)
Mm-hmm.
Yasmine (01:01:17.684)
That I have envisioned and I want the result. And the process is is gonna be important, but I'm I'm not just in the joy of the process. I'm really, really looking at the the result. And I, you know, right? Like those are very different modes in a way, and they need to be both present somehow. But like for me, it's it's I I come from a thing of being obsessed with the result.
M (01:01:28.386)
Yeah.
M (01:01:32.034)
when I.
Yeah. Yeah.
M (01:01:40.909)
Mm-hmm.
Yasmine (01:01:41.493)
And really had to learn to let go and hang out in the process more. And I think that's quite common in a lot of artists who actually, you know, keep making art. It's at one point they realize that just being obsessed with the result is not working. But I'm wondering, I've heard a lot of artists that I actually really
M (01:01:44.152)
Yeah.
M (01:01:48.534)
Yeah. Yeah.
M (01:01:54.978)
Yeah.
Yasmine (01:02:02.27)
admired in the good sense of the the word, like in a good sense of the word, like that I really was like, wow, those people make beautiful things or important things or whatever. They could be writers, they could be musicians, it could be anything. Saying that they they were so devoted to the work, but that they
M (01:02:04.908)
Uh-huh.
M (01:02:12.834)
Yeah.
Yasmine (01:02:21.204)
They really hated it while they were working on it. It was so hard and painful. And some some of my work I can relate to that. Some of it is a lot more pleasant. But I've been wondering, like I I know that for me, I I had one my mentor that was more like what you described. She was like, if it's not for fun, I'm not interested, I'm not doing it. If I can't have fun as I'm doing it, then I am not doing that to myself.
M (01:02:23.17)
Mm.
M (01:02:41.065)
Mm-hmm.
M (01:02:47.371)
No.
Yasmine (01:02:48.064)
And I've been really questioning that, being like, okay, is that a thing? And I think I'm I just, you know, I have an addict's mind. And, you know, I'm also a recovering addict. And I I tend to go very black and white. You know, it's like, it's either this or that, you know. Yeah. And and so that question of like, am I supposed to have joy at all times or not? Like, that's
M (01:03:02.015)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, same, yeah.
M (01:03:11.869)
Yeah.
Yasmine (01:03:12.916)
Yeah, it's been a question, like, is it okay for me sometimes to work without joy, but to have joy in in between? And I know that the result is something that in a s in a place of deep joy from a place of deep joy and inspiration, I envision that and then it sucks for a long time, but then I get like you know, I've tried I was just trying to serve that vision. Yeah, I'm wondering. Do you have any thought on that?
M (01:03:21.97)
you
M (01:03:35.839)
Yeah.
Yeah, I think it's about finding the joy in the trenches. Basically just being like... you know, for me, like I said, when I have to look at the script again, I'm scared. It might be shitty. It's usually actually shitty until it's done. But then I know how the payoff is. When I put three years of my life into a book...
It touches people in ways that like a piece of ceramic art that I made in a couple of hours could never ever ever do, you know, like So I know that when I apply myself and when I go over it again It's a different quality but I had this discussion with my editor a lot because I I was I would insist like the first line is the right line and Whatever came through me was right and you should not be editing and changing this and this is God's words You know, like basically
And he was just like, well, no, we're going to change.
And I also was like, don't want my name on the front page. And he's like, well, that's how we do it in Denmark. And I'm like, okay, okay. So I was like a spiritual warrior, but then not that much. Also a pushover.
M (01:04:56.915)
Yeah, it's like...
So yeah, yeah, but then I also noticed something in me is that I actually really like a challenge and I like hard work. So that's why I'm saying like finding the joy in the trenches because when I'm sitting there and wrecking my brain and I can't come up with the plot twist or this exactly character development or whatever it is, this hard thing, I like it. I like being challenged and I like using like all parts of my brain and you know, like really having to like...
Yasmine (01:05:01.226)
That's cool.
M (01:05:30.373)
work for it as well because a lot of things come really easily to me especially after so many years so yeah I mean I think it's okay not to be in total joy all time it's like a little impossible I guess you know
Yasmine (01:05:47.319)
Yeah. Yeah yeah. And yeah, it's funny, yeah. I think the fact that art art making is there's always it's always possible to find a cool challenge. For me, it's one of the reasons why I never like I was always in love with it, is because I was like, I'm never bored. There's always something challenging for me to do. The the level of challenge is so exciting.
M (01:05:48.518)
Yeah.
M (01:06:05.747)
Mmm.
M (01:06:09.725)
Yeah.
M (01:06:13.224)
Yeah.
Yasmine (01:06:13.428)
And and if there's no challenge anymore, well, I can move on. Like I moved on to painting because I was not challenged by drawing anymore. At at the place where I was where I felt like I was like a printer, you know, it just came out of me. And I was like, this is boring, you know. But then you can take on another type of challenge, like in the way you, you know, your composition or in in other things. Like it's it's just fun. You can just pick your challenge and it's like an eternal, you know, game.
M (01:06:20.163)
Awesome.
M (01:06:24.495)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
M (01:06:35.28)
Yeah.
M (01:06:40.549)
Yeah.
Yasmine (01:06:41.31)
An infinite game, yeah, I I just love that. But when it comes to just being in the trenches and finding the joy in the trenches, I was thinking how many times humor has saved my ass. Just being able to laugh about it with someone, you know. It that really, really helps. And then I'm wondering, like, do you have other ways to to find joy in the trenches?
M (01:06:48.721)
Mm-hmm.
M (01:06:52.421)
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely. Yeah.
Yeah.
M (01:07:06.481)
Yes, think like also like putting fun stuff for me to do there like for instance when I'm drawing the books I make sure that the drawings are something that I want to draw so I like like drawing bubbles and shiny things and digs and cats and Things that like a running and typography and stuff. So I fill my books with that So making sure you know to give myself little snacks along the way like so even though I'm doing the hard work
At least it's pretty or it's funny or I love the way the line goes on the page. And so like I always like sprinkle little goodies around for me. And when I'm doing the long I'm also like when I'm doing the scripts I have this page that I move and I write on it like you go or you got this I love you and stuff. So I see that all the time constantly my own like kind of reinforcing.
that I got it and I can do it because I know it's hard work and I know that I need to treat myself well.
Yasmine (01:08:13.728)
Yeah, too yeah, you're loving on yourself. That is such a such a healthy attitude I feel.
M (01:08:18.126)
Hmm It's so nice like it's really like you could just love yourself treat yourself nice like Yeah, why didn't I just come up with that?
Yasmine (01:08:26.004)
Yeah like... What the fuck?
Yasmine (01:08:31.938)
Absolutely. Yeah.
M (01:08:36.622)
But I still have to remind myself like six years later like, I'm writing the script, I should pamper myself. And I really should because it's, it is hard and that's okay, like, you know, but it's also okay to to pamper yourself when you have to do hard things, I think.
Yasmine (01:08:54.835)
It's so important. I mean, if you look at, you know, athletes and stuff, they get, you know, premium care for for doing that. There's a reason, right?
M (01:08:56.533)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Exactly, yeah, because we're high level performers in a way, you know, like, yeah, and it doesn't
Yasmine (01:09:10.636)
For sure. I mean that and yeah, yeah, go on. Well I at I mean even if one doesn't consider themselves a high level performer, if you want to get anywhere you have to start treating yourself that way.
M (01:09:14.956)
No, you're gone.
M (01:09:27.187)
Exactly, exactly. Yeah, I had a therapist. She worked with a lot of like sports performers and stuff like that. And she helped me a lot with a lot of these like techniques of how they do their things, you know, like and I really like the way she was like, yeah, you are a racehorse. I'm like, yes, I am. I need the best like food and care, like ice baths and whatever. Yeah, yeah. But if we're doing such important work, so that's also
Yasmine (01:09:44.544)
Yeah.
Yasmine (01:09:51.053)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
M (01:09:55.732)
I think taking it back or like taking the power back from a society that told us that art is volatile and frivolous and not important and stuff to really be like, well, this is very, very important and sacred stuff that I'm doing, you know, and I need to, yeah.
Yasmine (01:10:09.682)
Absolutely. Absolutely. It's to me it's so central. Without beauty we die. It doesn't matter how much food we have, how much shelter we have, we fucking die without beauty and meaning.
M (01:10:14.454)
Hmm. Yeah.
M (01:10:21.544)
Yes, yes. And also, I remember seeing the survey during COVID saying like that everybody saw artists as being the most unessential profession while everybody was sitting home consuming movies, music, like, you know, all of this created by artists, you know, and I'm just like, you guys are just I can't even with you guys like I'm just going to give up.
Yasmine (01:10:31.584)
Yes.
Yasmine (01:10:36.79)
Yes.
Yasmine (01:10:41.131)
Yes.
Yasmine (01:10:47.75)
Yeah, and can you believe I was talking with an artist recently who told me that he believed that. He was like, Yeah, we're not, you know, I I get it. I know my place. We're not that essential. And I was like, dude, you're drinking the Kool-Aid. Like, this is so natural. I know myself, I would be dead if it wasn't for art. And I'm not even talking about art making, even though that too. But I'm just talking, even just music. If it wasn't for music, I'd be dead.
M (01:10:59.66)
well.
Yeah.
M (01:11:14.668)
Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah, same, same.
Yasmine (01:11:19.432)
Yeah. So that was so nice. I'm really looking forward to having other conversations. yeah, this was so much fun.
M (01:11:20.938)
Ugh.
M (01:11:26.618)
Me too Me too amazing Amazing. Thank you so much for reaching out and the questions and and all of it I would love to do like a one for shadow work where we talk about dating and all of that
Yasmine (01:11:44.031)
that would be great. I think we could have something really really cool going on there. Okay, is there anything you'd like to say before we leave? I'll just put all your links, you know, in the show notes and everything, but is there anything you would like to say or
M (01:11:47.945)
I'm insane.
M (01:11:59.722)
Nothing specifically. I haven't thought about my big like ending thing Yeah Like I just I hope everybody make some art today, I guess that's all yeah
Yasmine (01:12:06.818)
Famous, famous last words.
Yasmine (01:12:17.63)
Yeah, that's a good one. Just that or that anybody you know, everybody benefits from hearing this. And you know. that's wonderful. Thank you so much, Mathilde. This was awesome.
